20-11-2003 13:15									#1
	Taiwan tells China to piss off... Remove this text

quote: HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- Taiwan has hit back at threats by China to use force against its pro-independence moves, telling Beijing to "mind its own business". In a statement release late Wednesday, the Taiwan government told China it had no right to interfere with the island's push for a new constitution and referendum bill. "Taiwan is a democratic country. Only its 23 million people have the right to decide its future and what is best for them," a spokesman for Taiwan's cabinet, Lin Chia-lung, said in the statement. "We can't tolerate interference with our internal affairs by any undemocratic countries," Reuters reports Lin saying. The response follows Beijing's threat to use force against Taiwan should the island's pro-independence movement continue to escalate -- the first time since 2000 that China has issued such a warning. In a tough statement, the Vice-Minister at Beijing's Taiwan Affairs Office Wang Zaixi said Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian's recent pro-separatist activities had crossed Beijing's "red line" and that they "run the risk of triggering a war" with the mainland. "War will break out if the island declares formal independence," state media on Wednesday quoted Wang as saying. "[The separatist forces] are set to pay a high cost if they think we will not use force against their conspiracy to promote formal independence." Beijing regards Taiwan as a renegade province and has threatened to use force if the self-governing island declares independence. In the past month or so, President Chen has indicated Taipei will be holding referendums on political issues -- and that the island's constitution will be revised in 2006 to reflect full-fledged statehood. A representative from China's People's Liberation Army also spoke out for the first time since controversy broke out several months ago over Taiwan's "creeping independence" gambit. The official China News Service quoted a senior researcher at the Chinese Academy of Military Science, Luo Yuan, as saying that "the day 'Taiwan independence' is promulgated is also the time when war will be declared." Luo said a number of senior PLA generals shared this feeling of urgency. He added that if the army were to do nothing in the face of Taiwan independence, "we would be going against the constitution and this would be a severe dereliction of duty." War of words During Taiwan polls in early 2000, Beijing also threatened to use force against the break-away island. Other heavyweight figures who have given warnings to Taipei include party elder Wang Daohan, adviser to ex-president Jiang Zemin on Taiwan affairs. Wang, also a former chief negotiator with Taiwan officials, said Taipei's recent pro-independence activities amounted to a "serious challenge" to Beijing -- and they will "push cross-Taiwan Straits relations to the brink of danger." Diplomatic analysts in Beijing and Taipei said the Chinese leadership had upped the ante in the war of words because Beijing feared Chen might sweep to victory in presidential elections coming up in March next year. During presidential polls in early 2000, Beijing also threatened to use force against the break-away island. Since then, however, the Communist party leadership has cooled down their rhetoric and threats of a "liberation warfare" to achieve reunification have very seldom been made in public. The analysts said the escalation in tension had followed Beijing's fears that some political elements in the U.S. were providing covert aid to Taipei, and that Chen's re-election chances had been lifted because of his ability to whip up pro-separatist sentiments among the populace.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/a....war/index.html

I say bravo for Taiwan. It's good to see that someone still has the balls to stand up to the thugs in Beijing.

	20-11-2003 13:20									#2
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Nicely done - by nice, Democratic people. Now let's get a fleet of F-22s out there so they can really tell them to piss off

	20-11-2003 13:20									#3
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quote: Taiwan is a democratic country.

	20-11-2003 13:21									#4
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the end of the world is coming. I can feel it

	20-11-2003 13:24									#5
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quote: Now let's get a fleet of F-22s out there so they can really tell them to piss off

I think some top-of-the-line Aegis Cruisers are needed as well. Don't want the Commies thinking their missiles might actually reach the island.

	20-11-2003 13:25									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Well, people say that about the US, too.

You and I both know it just means "We ain't commies."

	20-11-2003 13:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Now let's get a fleet of F-22s out there so they can really tell them to piss off I think some top-of-the-line Aegis Cruisers are needed as well. Don't want the Commies thinking their missiles might actually reach the island.

The AEGIS CG carries a max of 96 SM2ER missiles, IIRC. Assuming we wanted to play ball in that court (and who's kidding who, the Walton clan wouldn't allow it, not to mention every other US corporation that's pimping off cheap PRC labor), we'd run out of missiles before they would.

	20-11-2003 13:30									#8
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The Bush Admin has already put a nice exit by stating that they will not support any efforts to change the status quo of the Taiwan Strait. That should rain nicely on Mr Chen's own parade.

	20-11-2003 13:31									#9
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I just hope Bush doesn't get us in a war over this.

I really don't want to die just yet. China does have nukes that can reach the western U.S.

	20-11-2003 13:34									#10
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quote: The AEGIS CG carries a max of 96 SM2ER missiles, IIRC. Assuming we wanted to play ball in that court (and who's kidding who, the Walton clan wouldn't allow it, not to mention every other US corporation that's pimping off cheap PRC labor), we'd run out of missiles before they would.

They'd be supplemented by missiles based in Taiwan itself, of course.

You're right though; we'll never sell Taiwan Aegis cruisers. ****ing Wal-Mart...

quote: The Bush Admin has already put a nice exit by stating that they will not support any efforts to change the status quo of the Taiwan Strait. That should rain nicely on Mr Chen's own parade.

They also said that they don't oppose Taiwanese independence either. Seems like they aren't telling Chen anything...

	20-11-2003 13:34									#11
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For us, it's just another tired show of Mr Chen, a one-trick pony. Of course, with the election coming next year, expect more of the same from him and his lackeys.

Pretty ho hum after a few times of this, though.

	20-11-2003 13:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten They also said that they don't oppose Taiwanese independence either. Seems like they aren't telling Chen anything...

Clearly, what a lowly peon said in Taiwan wouldn't carry much weight. Not as much as, say, Powell.

	20-11-2003 13:37									#13
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Powell has to toe the official line, being the head of the State Department and all. The winking is done by "lowly peons".

	20-11-2003 13:56									#14
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Question:

What is preventing Taiwan from just shutting up, thereby avoiding this situation altogether?

	20-11-2003 13:57									#15
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Dignity?

	20-11-2003 14:01									#16
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Thats not a very good reason

	20-11-2003 14:02									#17
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quote: What is preventing Taiwan from just shutting up, thereby avoiding this situation altogether?

A sincere belief that their internal politics shouldn't be meddled in by an undemocratic and threatening neighbor?

	20-11-2003 14:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten They also said that they don't oppose Taiwanese independence either. Seems like they aren't telling Chen anything...

Sure they are. "If you can make the sun rise in the west, pigs fly, and pull off independence by not rocking the boat with China, that's no skin off our ass, and good luck to ya, bro'

	20-11-2003 14:04									#19
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quote: Sure they are. "If you can make the sun rise in the west, pigs fly, and pull off independence by not rocking the boat with China, that's no skin off our ass, and good luck to ya, bro'

True enough. I stand corrected.

	20-11-2003 14:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: What is preventing Taiwan from just shutting up, thereby avoiding this situation altogether? A sincere belief that their internal politics shouldn't be meddled in by an undemocratic and threatening neighbor?

Pride for security? Sounds like a good exchange to me.

	20-11-2003 14:11									#21
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China doesn't have the balls (or the navy) to actually invade Taiwan. They're just saber rattling and the Taiwanese seems like they might finally be calling the Chinese bluff. More power to them.

	20-11-2003 14:17									#22
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China won't let Taiwan go independent, anymore than the Brits would let those 13 colonies of rabble rousers go independent. China may not have the means to take Taiwan whole, but they could turn it into a smoking crater, or just let that prospect starve Taiwan of formal diplomatic recognition, foreign investment and trade. The rest of the world would make the obvious choice - a little resourceless overcrowded rock, of the biggest market/pool of near-captive cheap labor in the world.

	20-11-2003 14:23									#23
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God, you're ruining all my fun, MtG...

quote: or just let that prospect starve Taiwan of formal diplomatic recognition, foreign investment and trade. The rest of the world would make the obvious choice - a little resourceless overcrowded rock, of the biggest market/pool of near-captive cheap labor in the world.

I think the PRC will go with this route. No need to endure the international condemnation and risk of war with the U.S. inherent in any attempt to turn a democratic Taiwan into a smoking crater when you can achieve the same thing without firing a shot.

I don't think Taiwan will declare independence, though, at any rate. There's really no benefit to it.

	20-11-2003 14:29									#24
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They have to realize that the entire world will hang them out to dry. Small resourceless countries or wannabe countries just don't rate.

It's the old saying about having no permanent allies or permanent enemies, only permanent interests.

	20-11-2003 14:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten God, you're ruining all my fun, MtG...

I know, I'm sorry, troll away.

	20-11-2003 14:31									#26
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Nah, it's time to drink now. To Taiwanese independence, of course...

	20-11-2003 17:22									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The rest of the world would make the obvious choice - a little resourceless overcrowded rock, of the biggest market/pool of near-captive cheap labor in the world.

Unless you're populated by white indoeuropeans - the world did say "shove it" to Rooskies once the Baltics re-declared independence in 1990-1991.

	20-11-2003 18:06									#28
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go taiwan! iirc, i don't know if this is still the case, but during the cold war, there was a under-the-table and somewhat gentleman's agreement that skorea and japan and taiwan would come to each others aid in the event either one came under attack from the evil red communists.

	20-11-2003 18:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The AEGIS CG carries a max of 96 SM2ER missiles, IIRC. Assuming we wanted to play ball in that court (and who's kidding who, the Walton clan wouldn't allow it, not to mention every other US corporation that's pimping off cheap PRC labor), we'd run out of missiles before they would.

That assumes that numerous missles aren't destroyed on the ground before they can be launched.

	20-11-2003 19:21									#30
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This reminds me of a storyline my brother and his pals wrote when they were freshmen and messing around with a video camera. This was over a year ago so my memory's not that great but if I recall correctly it went something like this:

It was to have featured plenty of very hammy and overdone martial arts capers and frolics, carried out against the backdrop of worsening political relations between China and Taiwan. Something about spies and politicians engaging in martial arts, for some odd reason. So basically Jackie Chan meets James Bond, done by the Hammerfest Horror director - sort of thing.

Anyway, to my point. The very last scene in this woeful homemade video would have taken place just as the Chinese ambassador and the Taiwanese ambassador were dueling in the back alleys with swords and flails, with a radio broadcast in the background having this Beijing accent political voice saying that they are prepping and arming the nukes to "unite the motherland".

Halfway through, just as it looks like the Chinese ambassador is about to do a Keurgen on the Taiwanese guy, there's static on the radio and then the Beijing voice on the radio announces a back down. He makes a moving speech saying that it's time that fellow Chinese on both sides of the strait stopped threatening each other and started living like brothers and sisters instead, and that unification could only be achieved through peace and so they would be turning their nukes away from Taiwan, never to turn them back.

The two ambassadors get up and shake hands and embrace as the radio voice continues "And so we're going to point the nukes at Japan instead." and everybody starts cheering.