23-11-2003 10:33									#91
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Obviously a mixed message and probably by design...on one hand we tell PRC that we support one China and on the other we show Taiwan that we will be there.

You didn't realize that the "One China" they are supporting is the ROC.

	23-11-2003 18:36									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ned With sufficient air power, China could force a successful landing even with minimal amphibious capability.

Extremely doubtful. The PLA Navy has very few amphibious landing craft, only enough to transport, IIRC, about 10,000 soldiers.

Such a small force could be thrown back by even a small fraction of the Taiwanese military.

On the other hand, the PLAN might be able to inflict serious economic damage on Taiwan by disrupting its sea trade using submarines and aircraft - success contingent on US involvement, of course.

	23-11-2003 19:46									#93
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quote: Originally posted by POTUS You didn't realize that the "One China" they are supporting is the ROC.

Again, this is part of the "mixed message philosophy. We state that we support one China, but don't say who is the benefactor of that support. The PRC thinks its them and the ROC thinks its them. We do nothing to clear it up and therefore support ambiguity...which keeps our options open. The problem is that this creates a pre-Gulf War type syndrome where actions could be taken based on faulty interpretation of what we say. If we truly support ROC (as I think we do...and hope we do), then we should remove the ambiguity and state openly that we will defend them.

	24-11-2003 02:14									#94
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The US should just find some oil and invade both.

	24-11-2003 08:35									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley The US should just find some oil and invade both.

PRC has oil.

quote: World Tibet Network News Saturday, November 12, 1994 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. China's New Oil Fields Hold Potential -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BEIJING, Nov. 11 (UPI) -- China said Friday the rich gas and oil fields in its inhospitable northwest hold massive potential and have brought fresh hopes of development to its isolated regions. "Northwest China, known for its large territory and rich resources, is now actively pursuing oil and natural gas exploration in a bid to achieve economic advancement," the official Xinhua news agency said. The barren region, which makes up one third of China, lags seriously behind the affluent east coast and is home for well over half of China's 80 million people who live below the poverty line. But China hopes three massive oil and natural gas finds in the provinces of Shaanxi, Qinghai, Gansu Ningxia Hui and Xinjiang will supply China's power-hungry industry and pull the area out of poverty. The Xinjiang frontier, with its 30 billion tons of proven resources is the greatest hope for development. Its three oil-rich basins -- Tarim, Junggar and Turpan-Hami -- have 75 large industrial oil-bearing strata and 34 oil and gas fields have already been discovered. Exploration in the Tarim, the biggest basin of all with 20.5 billion tons of proven reserves, has already begun. U.S-based Esso, Italian AGIP and British Petroleum are all drilling for oil alongside a number of Chinese outfits. Some 3.23 million tons of crude oil were extracted from the Tarim last year and the central government plans to invest $1.2 billion in further exploration this year, the news agency said. Slightly further south, a large gas field on the borders of Shaanxi, Gansu and Ningxia Hui is also causing excitement. The Shaanganning Basin is expected to have gas reserves of 173 billion cubic meters, about 15 percent of China's total. Nearly 200 wells have already been drilled into the gas pocket, which is expected to yield 2.5 billion cubic meters of gas a year. The third oil-rich region lies in the Qaidam Basin in Qinghai Province. It has an annual production of 1 million tons and will greatly ease oil shortages in Qinghai and Tibet, the news agency said.

	24-11-2003 14:13									#96
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They also have weapons of mass destruction, including an active nuclear weapons and missile program.

	24-11-2003 15:07									#97
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Then the US won't attack. They'll ask China to intervine. Oh, wait.

	24-11-2003 17:19									#98
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wouldn't it be funny if china developed sentinels, and taiwan built those really dorky looking mechs?

	24-11-2003 21:26									#99
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well of course, most everything's got a Made in China or a Made in Taiwan stamped on it, why not so in the future?

	24-11-2003 23:57									#100
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You're all wrong. MWHC will set the record right.

First, China is not going to attack anyone. And never some island that has the fire power Taiwan has. I'm not saying Taiwan could win... but, Taiwan would be no push over for China. China would end up with a black eye and busted lip - at least! And this is without US help. Of course we all know the outcome if the US is in the fight. Taiwan/US vs China/anyone else nuts enough - over in 4 days. At least 4 days until China rolls over and gives up.

For those who disagree with this part - who has china pounded on in the last 50 years??? Can china even produce a pounding?? Can China maintain a war front?? Can China even defend itself??

But really, China can't attack Taiwan anymore than the US could attack China. We're too linked up together in terms of manufacturing, banking and trade - even more so for China than the US. Talk is cheap - war costs money - and a war between the US and China would cost just too many dollars... and Taiwan is not worth it - for either side. Taiwan will go it's own way... it already has.

	24-11-2003 23:58									#101
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You all lack vision. I think the only way to go is for China to develop Death Knights and Necromancers.

	25-11-2003 00:00									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed so will we see a taiwanese girl blowing herself up in the forbidden city?

Don't give my cousins ideas. They're disruptive enough as it is without bringing politics into it...

	25-11-2003 02:25									#103
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The ChiComs may rely on the trade issue to deflect a US suspension of trade in the event of an invasion. This is a two-way street.

	25-11-2003 06:06									#104
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The Chinese will not invade. Based on the projections almost the entire world uses for amphibious assualts (based on Normandy), China would easily be defeated. China seems to realize this. Forcing Taiwan to divest itself of Chinese assests would help Taiwan to become more developed. China is not the only country with sweat shops, either.

	25-11-2003 07:16									#105
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Fez, we need one, um, very large helicopter.

	25-11-2003 17:07									#106
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i still don't see a chinese invasion of taiwan. they're like a couple who is "separated", but they get together every weekend to from hot, wet, wild, and funky buttf*ckin' (kinda like france and germany), only to ***** about each other all the other days of the week.

	25-11-2003 20:35									#107
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Eloquently put That's exactly what I think of the situation.

Also don't forget that the two are comprised people, not politicians. Many families like my own have large numbers of members in both regions and we want peace just as badly as we want reunification.

	25-11-2003 20:48									#108
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yeah, but you can at least see those relatives.

i've got some long lost ones on the northern side. will i ever know them or see them?

doubtful. the taiwanese and chinese have it much better with their -ahem- arrangement.

	25-11-2003 20:56									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia You all lack vision. I think the only way to go is for China to develop Death Knights and Necromancers.

They would be easily brushed aside by Taiwanese Faerie Dragons and Demon Hunters.

	26-11-2003 02:15									#110
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Then the USA will send in their Stone Giant.

	26-11-2003 02:26									#111
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See! China doesn't stand a chance until they can start producing sufficent Frost Wyrms and buy enough Goblin Zeppelins to mount an invasion.

	26-11-2003 03:16									#112
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You know what? You're right.

Sometimes you just have to use your GPS Satellite.

	26-11-2003 21:16									#113
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quote: Originally posted by POTUS Based on the projections almost the entire world uses for amphibious assualts (based on Normandy), China would easily be defeated.

Years ago, the CCP army was also projected to be unable to cross the Yangtze.

They don't have to. If they want to mess with Taiwan, as much as one missile crosses the island and drop into the ocean on the other side, you will see money flee and stock market crash.

	26-11-2003 21:23									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Years ago, the CCP army was also projected to be unable to cross the Yangtze.

Well unless they've actually been hidding Frost Wyrms and Goblin Zeppelins they severely lack enough assets to realistically mount an invasion of the island. I don't really care how many smilie face you put after your response.

quote: If they want to mess with Taiwan, as much as one missile crosses the island and drop into the ocean on the other side

I haven't seen the RoK crash and burn yet.

	28-11-2003 07:49									#115
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quote: Taiwan vote risks China's wrath TAIPEI, Taiwan -- Taiwan's parliament has passed legislation allowing the island to hold referendums on sensitive issues such as changing its constitution or official name, despite repeated warnings from China. Beijing has expressed fears the move could lead to a vote on independence, which would violate its "One China" policy, and warned of a "strong response." Last week, Vice-Minister at China's Taiwan Affairs Office Wang Zaixi said Taiwan's President Chen Shui-bian's pro-separatist activities had crossed Beijing's "red line," with the island running "the risk of triggering a war" with the mainland. (China renews threat) China insists self-ruled, democratic Taiwan is a renegade province, and must eventually unify, by force, if necessary. Taipei legislators have spent days haggling the legislation, and were split over whether referendums can be held to initiate changes in the constitution. But on Thursday, the chamber passed it into law 114 to 96. In another measure, Taiwan lawmakers passed a separate proposal which would allow the president the power to hold an independence referendum should China attack the island. Called a "defensive referendum" clause, such a plebiscite would take place if China used military force to make Taiwan agree to unification. The measure was passed by the chamber 108-82.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/a...vote/index.html

Take that, you commie bastards!

	29-11-2003 08:55									#116
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quote: Take that, you commie bastards!

Communists? In China? Where?

	29-11-2003 08:58									#117
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I grow ever more confident in China's current top leadership...

quote: Beijing Softens Its Stance Against New Legislation in Taiwan By KEITH BRADSHER Published: November 29, 2003 TAIPEI, Taiwan, Nov. 28 — Beijing shifted its response on Friday to new Taiwanese legislation on national referendums, expressing concern about the law and repeating previous warnings to this island against seeking formal independence but stopping short of any threats. The official New China News Agency had initially posted a commentary on its Internet site noting that the referendum legislation removed "the imminent danger of Taiwanese independence." By Friday evening, a separate brief statement was added, quoting a spokesman for the Chinese government's Taiwan Affairs Office. "We are deeply concerned about relevant things concerning `referendum legislation' in Taiwan and are paying close attention to the development of the issue," he said, adding no specifics. The statement closed with a warning that any attempt to separate Taiwan from China "will not be tolerated absolutely." But in contrast with three warnings earlier this week of the possible use of force if a broad referendum law passed, the statement made no explicit threats. Beijing has regarded Taiwan as a renegade province ever since the Nationalists lost China's civil war to the Communists in 1949 and retreated here. The return on Friday to vague, albeit critical statements, was read by experts here as a sign of easing tension. A Chinese statement earlier this week had referred to Taiwan as a "shen sheng," or sacred, part of China, a term seldom used in recent years and viewed in Taiwan as a signal of great anger and intransigence in Beijing. "I had goose bumps coming up when I saw it," said Su Chi, an influential Nationalist Party adviser on Taiwan Straits issues and a former minister for relations with China. President Chen Shui-bian and his Democratic Progressive Party backed away on Thursday afternoon from previous demands by the party's pro-independence wing for broad legislation authorizing the use of referendums to pursue changes in the Constitution and sovereignty. In the end, the legislature approved a narrow version supported by the Nationalist Party and People First Party, which favor eventual political reunification with the mainland. Politicians here said in interviews on Friday that a new consensus seemed to be emerging that the presidential campaign now getting started should be fought more on economic issues than on the potentially inflammatory sovereignty issue. The more moderate tone follows several strong statements from American officials to Taiwanese reporters in Washington in the last week that the Bush administration does not want a crisis in the Taiwan Strait. A senior Taiwanese government official spoke Friday of an acute wariness of angering the United States by allowing any crisis to develop with China when the Bush administration was already preoccupied with Iraq and North Korea. "People here in the political parties know this is not a time to offend our friends, especially when our friends need a more peaceful time" in the Taiwan Straits, the official said. "We are aware of the reality. We are pretty realistic." The referendum law passed by the legislature may be unconstitutional in allowing the legislature to call referendums but making it extremely difficult for the president to do so. For this reason, President Chen may veto the law or ask the legislature to amend it or ask Taiwan's Supreme Court, the Council of Grand Justice, to issue an interpretation of the law. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/29/international/asia/29TAIW.html

	29-11-2003 09:19									#118
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quote: Communists? In China? Where?

The PRC is still run by the Chinese Communist Party, even if they are more fascist than communist at this point in time.

Looks like Taiwan successfully called China's bluff, BTW.

	29-11-2003 09:20									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Take that, you commie bastards!

As I pointed out elsewhere, that's a much weaker version of the thang that Chen wants it to be.

	29-11-2003 11:08									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Communists? In China? Where? The PRC is still run by the Chinese Communist Party, even if they are more fascist than communist at this point in time.

Ah, but the PRC is called the People's Republic of China, meaning its not fascist at all. They say so