23-11-2003 05:58									#211
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Cort, I opened a back channel chat for us.

	23-11-2003 07:42									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Cort, I opened a back channel chat for us.

damn, checked out that channel, but missed you guys, just panzer there.

good work on all fronts guys.

	24-11-2003 03:46									#213
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To Aggie, donegeal, and Master Zen:

We had a short chat with Lego. They are, of course, maintaining their current commitments, including their support of GoW in the event that we attack your homeland. They are aware of our current contract negotiations, and in the event that we enter into the contract against ND as described, they will not interfere.

The above paragraph was specifically reviewed and approved by vondrack. Please contact him or Nimitz to confirm.

Shall we try to finish the agreement?

T

	25-11-2003 23:52									#214
	Gow/GS chat - 23rd Nov Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Cort> RP have sent us Toledo, Barca and New Madrid Theseus> Cort> they could be gone next turn if we reach agreement Theseus> Pregnant pause. MasterZen> ok MasterZen> here's the deal MasterZen> as you can imagine this proposal is pretty much the only thing we've been debating for the last couple of days (weeks) Cort> indeed Theseus> Us to. Theseus> too MasterZen> however, before we accept there are two things that bother us, and might impede an arrangement to be made Theseus> RP and RP? MasterZen> ok, THREE things Theseus> LOL MasterZen> but RP was already assumed as a given, so back to the other two MasterZen> to be honest, our guys are not happy at the fact that we're getting half of bob, and GS is getting not only the other half but its already massively-developed territory (minus the pretty useless North Estonaia ghetto projects) Cort> less than half - Lion's share for you guys MasterZen> and the second point is Lego. Lego is not the isolationist turtle it was 50 turns ago. I think this point in history they will try and win by all means, and if that inolves being actively involved in the bobian question, they will Cort> You'd have just about all of ND Theseus> Can we deal with the second point first? Lego? Cort> Fair point, MZ - will ND call in the MPP? Theseus> I am not sure what you mean about Lego, MZ. MasterZen> so as long as Lego's position remains an unknown, we can't really accept. If we go to war with ND it will be with all we've got, that will leave our territory really undefended MasterZen> Lego might very well not tolerate our gangbaning of ND Aggie> they are capable of intervening and creating a dissaterous war for both of us Cort> What if Legonian neutrality could be assured? MasterZen> and especially for us :P MasterZen> yeah, like GS's neutrality for this war? Aggie> i have good through the war in my mind. Lego could guarentee stalemate or worse. Aggie> i mean gone MasterZen> its the same thing that happened with GS. We did everything to prevent GS from intervening and wrongly thought we had achieved that. And it all went to hell Theseus> Ahhh, the Lego "balance" issue. FYI, I outright asked vondrack if we could hire you... he said it would be fine. Also, we are trying to arrange a chat with Nimitz. MasterZen> same exact thing can happen with Lego if ND does an RP-style deal with them, think about that MasterZen> if I've learned anything from this game is that even the things you think are assured, aren't Theseus> I do not believe that we can jointly enter into this contract without Lego's explicit agreement. Theseus> Not can't... shouldn't. Theseus> In fact, I have made overtures to Lego to join in the action. Theseus> Move 'balance' from 4 primary players to 3. Cort> We are prepared to share our portion of Bob with Lego if they do Theseus> BTW, this is going to come back around to your first issue... we are committed to a 3 team 'balance' as well, and then we'll see where the game takes us. Cort> did you like the Rider Upgrade Scheme? Aggie> that was very helpful Cort> So, assuming we can satisfy you with a fair share of Bob, Theseus> Anyway, we presented a pretty comprehensive draft contract. Let's get down to the nitty gritty. Aggie> Theseus and cort haus, as i said in our forum, the amount of time and detail you put into this, was amazing Theseus> CH, really. :applause: Cort> shows we're serious, right? Aggie> yes indeed. Even people who might disagree, can't help but take a second look Cort> So we're keen to get round the Lego problem Theseus> Q: Who have you dealt with most and best at Lego? Vondrack? Nimitz? Aggie> Well thats the most difficult one. If I'm lego I'd support ND and involve us the rest of the world in a war forever. aslo they get a GA out of it Aggie> vondrack Theseus> Lego: If it's OK, I'd like us to try to gain their concurrence. Aggie> go for it Aggie> but part of me suspects that the deal might still fall through from our end. Aggie> there isa significant element that wants no GS on BOB Aggie> this is just from a game winning situation for us point of view(nothing persoanl) Theseus> Ah, Aggie, I was just typing a more complete thought... wait a sec. Theseus> Further: You guys want more land. I assume that regards the current ND city at the SW edge of the jungle... how about we offer that to Lego, given a commitment to share the luxes (for now)? Aggie> let me see a map Aggie> brb Theseus> Re no GS on Bob: You can't take out ND without us, and we don;t have a shot without more land. While we in fact will be the contracting party, you benefit greatly as well. Theseus> Let me say that another way: You are paying US to give you a shot, in the form of land. Theseus> And resources, too, but we have addressed that in our draft contract. Aggie> i see that, but there are other ways we can win. In the end we(GOW) must look at all possibilites and see which ones have the best outcome for us Theseus> Fair enough. Theseus> Hmmm... Lego contracts GoW to take over Bob. Possible. Aggie> to be honest I must be careful, becasue to a degree I ahve been playing the game with my own plans and strategies. I am aware of the charge that I do what I and not what the team wants Theseus> We've actually heard that not about you but about vondrack. Aggie> it was like a scenario to me when you come into a situation and then try to find the best way to win with what you have Aggie> i suspect yes Aggie> most talks were between me and him Theseus> I've had the sense that although your debates have been raucous, GoW has been fairly unified. Theseus> brb Aggie> yes they are, but this is one of those, "2 distinct sides arguements" Cort> So if you see your options best invested elsewhere, do you have any suggestions as to how we might otherwise end our war? Aggie> well imho a deal of trade could do it, we guarentee resources and colonies in exchange for peace. Aggie> lets face it, any cities you have on bob are hopelessly corrupt. Unless you palace jump to pamploma and buidl FP in your core. But then n estonia is hopelessly corrupt. So this is about resoiurces and lux in the end Cort> and ND? Theseus> We are prepared to Palace Jump. Theseus> To us, the end-game is about production, not just resources. Theseus> Also, nice job pinging our Knights. Cort> good shooting Aggie> we were lucky Theseus> I gotta jump... let me summarize: Theseus> * GoW is still undetermined as to their team choice of direction. Aggie> yes we are Aggie> saadly i still say a 50/50 chance of wither way Aggie> either Theseus> * Who gets what land (assuming that we can cut such a deal) is in question. Aggie> yes,could you give us pamploma mountains north Theseus> * We concur that Lego's cooperation is critical. Theseus> Aggie, say that again... more clarity. Aggie> is it possible you could expand our area from the mountains south of pamploma northward Aggie> say Alamo remains ours Aggie> and pamploma Aggie> you get the coastal cities to Barcelona and the rest is a Neutral zone maybe Theseus> WHOA... that is a lotta land. Gotta go, will leace this open if that's OK, and will respond later. But thanks for the counter-response! Theseus> leave Aggie> bye Cort> ok guys, thanks for the chat Ennet> be good! Aggie> yes thank you Cort> * exits stage left Session Close: Sun Nov 23 02:01:35 2003

	26-11-2003 23:17									#215
	Remove this text

quote: Aggie, To help put the land debate into perspective, we've been comparing the size of the continents in the world in terms of tile count as a rough guide to productive power. Here are the findings: Stormia : ~ 200 tiles (including 40 on N. Stormia) Bob : ~ approx 750 tiles Lego : ~ 400 tiles (exluding approx 80 New Voxia) At the moment, GoW had around 160-170 tiles in its homeland. GS has 160 tiles plus N. Stormia. A 2/3 to 1/3 split between GoW in the North and GS / RP in the south would give GoW 500 tiles of contiguous land - compared to around 350 tiles for GS- split over two continents. RP would have maybe four or five cities in 80-100 tiles of unbalanced, mostly rough terrain in the far SW. This deal would see GoW triple their existing territory, while enjoying a signifcant territorial advantage over GS - so as they say : "what is there not to like?". Regards, CH

	27-11-2003 16:46									#216
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Hi Aggie, Just a quite to note to say hello, and to check that your team has recieved our analysis of land and tile-counts in the world which I sent yesterday. We appreciate that you need time to discuss this matter amongst yourselves, but we were wondering if you could give any indication of the likelihood or otherwise of GoW accepting the principle of a 2:1 split of Bob, with GoW enjoying the 66%. Also, have you met with Vondrack? He assured us that in the event of GoW and GS coming to an agreement, Lego would would not intervene against us. Obviously, you need to hear that from him personally, so we were wondering if progress had been made in that avenue. Finally, regarding your expressed aspirations for the Alamo-Pamplona region - would this be a strategic location you would wish to control for the purposes of conducting operations against ND, or a permanent feature of the GoW empire? Many thanks, and warm regards, Cort Haus Gathering Storm

	27-11-2003 21:56									#217
	from Aggie Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Yes we have recieved the analysis and I am impressed with them. A more formal response in the making, but I feel that before you play your turn I must inform you that it appears that this proposal will not be approved and other options are winning out. So here's my advice, play the turn as if a peace deal will not be made. We appreciate the great work and IMHO this is a fair and practical deal. However, the majority of the team feels that other options are best for our team. We do hope that the channel of communication stay open and that hopefully at a later date peace can be made. Best of Luck Aggie

	27-11-2003 22:21									#218
	To Aggie Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Many thanks for the note, Aggie - you're a reasonable man and it would have been a pleasure working with you. By the way, we're thinking of becoming a mercenary civ too - so if you want to make peace and hire us - give us a call

	28-11-2003 23:47									#219
	To Aggie Got spare money?

quote: Aggie, Thank-you again for your honesty yesterday. Your boys must be delighted to see how the peace talks depleted our Knights - but that was the risk we took You could easily have strung it out a turn to give us less chance of taking even one opponent down whilst they are routed. You mentioned at one point in our discussions that you could concieve of an alternative peace with GS. That is comforting, but what of your team? Are there any set of circumstances (other than our capitulation and the destruction of RP) that GoW as a team would consider as peace terms? There seems little point in us making any further proposal without an understanding of where the goalposts are. As we understand it - we are still in a position to deliver your current contract at a considerably reduced cost than the one you are currently facing. You will, of course, inevitably take Pamplona - but at a high price. We also still have many defenders dug-in around Spain, and there is a feeling amongst some in GS that seeing as Lego is effectively part of the alliance against us anyway - getting them out in the open, while getting an emotional thrill out of destroying a some GoW cities hardly makes any difference. Lego may even be forced to eventually realise that eliminating GS as a power could be the lining of their own coffin, as even their 400 tiles cannot eventually compete with a Bobian superpower's 750 tiles. It is, as ever, a pleasure to be in communication with you. CH

	02-12-2003 21:41									#220
	Increase Your PM Length

Reminder to Aggie:

quote: Hi Aggie, Am I right in suggesting that the ball is your court, as regards to our diplomatic communications? We were inquiring, if I recall correctly, as to possible alternative arrangements for peace between our nations. If your team is interested and has any proposal, please let us know. If you don't have a suggestion at this time - perhaps you can keep the channel open anway. Regards, CH GS

	03-12-2003 15:43									#221
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From Aggie:

quote: Aggie wrote on 03-12-2003 03:48: Hi there, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. We should definitely keep the line of communication open. Since in the end, regardless of how events go now, we will have to negotiate a peace. Also don't get discouraged about the knight stack. That was simply a matter of much luck. I have noticed that that location on the forest has been super bad for defending units(even ours). Best of luck Aggie

	04-12-2003 02:56									#222
	To Aggie Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Aggie, Thanks for the reply. A view is developing at GS that the key obstacle to peace on Bob lies in the following conundrum: 1. GS are keen to hang on to what they and their allies hold in Spain because of (a) land shortage (b) possible essential strategic resource access - but we don't know for sure yet and (c) shield investment made. 2. GoW are keen to drive GS & their allies from Spain - perhaps for the same reasons as GS wish to hold it, but with the key additional reason that Spain, or part of it, was to be ND's award to GoW under a contract to drive RP from the continent. The longer that shields continue to be spent forcing an outcome, the more Lego benefits, and the further behind the protagonists on Bob - particularly the sqeezed nations of GoW and GS - will fall. We could have more Forest of Doom battles before a military settlement is finally reached, but we think a better option for all 3 of us is for GoW, ND and GS to sit down together as soon as possible and determine a final settlement to the great and terrible Bobian war. Understanding as we do now that some on the GoW side have more affection and respect for RP than GS, maybe the Spanish should have a seat at the table too. Regards, CH

	11-12-2003 16:03									#223
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quote: Hi Aggie, You may be interested to know (and have probably observed) that we are on our way home. We believe that we were not holding any SP deposits on Bob, and frankly, we didn't think much of the weather over there anyway. Regards Cort Haus

	12-12-2003 01:43									#224
	from Aggie Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Sorry I haven't responded earlier, my pop up blocker was intercepting my "you have PM notice". My apologies. This is good news and will try to make my team give you something in return, since one good turn deserves another. Aggie

	12-12-2003 15:09									#225
	and from MZ Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Hello Cort, Yes, Aggie received your PM and has shared it with our team. Thank for forwarding it to me anyway. I am looking forward to have a post-war chat with your team, perhaps we can arrange something once the situation is over with as I would very much dislike to see GS and GoW part as enemies. This war is over, but there's still a peace to be won and that will only be done by cleaning the slate and starting anew with our relationship. Best regards to you and your teammates, -Master Zen Consul of Foreign Affairs GoW

	13-12-2003 02:07									#226
	Cease-fire offer from GoW Tired of ads?

quote: Hi there. As you withdraw you will notice units following nearby. Let me assure you that these units are strictly for occupation(or to ensure razing) of RP areas as you withdraw. These forces will be small so that they will pose no offensive capability toward your forces. As of this time, we are calling for a ceasefire between our forces to help you withdraw. I will not attack retreating forces. Rest assured that you can take paths without worring about defense bonus etc. They have fought well against superior numbers and with an ally that couldn't assist. Your valiant effort have give about 15 more turns to RP thatn they would have had. It is always harder to defend areas that you don't control than your on. Also I'll begin the planning of the return of your captured workers. This will be in a little while since we still will have to build some roads. Now here is the fun stuff. I realize that this might go against your RP alliance, but would you consider giving some of the RP cites for tech(say invention or other tech) or lux instead of razing them or gifting to RP. For the record a negative answer is understandable and I am just checking. I will send you peace accepted if you like this turn and perhaps wine could follow. I look forward to a profitable relationship in the future. As always, best wishes Aggie

	13-12-2003 21:39									#227
	to Aggie Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Hi Aggie, Thank-you for your peace offer. GS and RP are considering our team positions with regard to the future, but meanwhile there is an idea I'd like you and your team to consider. The recent carnage on Bob has seen the participants kiss goodbye to a staggering number of shields, as Lego's explosion on the powergraph dramatically illustrates. GS concluded that as long as its troops remained on Bob, the alliance against us would ensure that Lego win the game. Wheras a few turns ago we felt that ND was the primary obstacle to the interests of both GoW and GS, the recent combined shield losses have put Lego in a dominant position, and a lengthy, expensive conclusion to the status of Pamplona could be just what Lego need to become unnassailable. I want to suggest to all teams in the Great Bobian War that a final settlement could now be reached which offered immediate peace, security, mutual benefit and common interest. I stress again that this is not currently a GS team position - it is an idea that all four sides at war on Bob can consider simultaneously. The sticking point in such a game-saving deal of course, is the fact that many on the GoW side wish to eliminate GS and RP from the game. This is music to vondracks ears, I'm sure - and the implications of such sentiments as GoW policy are all too obvious. Regards, Cort Haus.

	14-12-2003 22:32									#228
	update / correction to Aggie Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Aggie, Sorry to have bothered you. Please disregard my last PM suggesting possible peace arrangements. It has been furiously denounced by other parties so is a complete no-go. My apologies for wasting your time. CH

	14-12-2003 23:48									#229
	from Aggie Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: I am sorry to hear that fact. Sorry for my own lack of response as I have had a cold(nothing major, just irritating now). But I do understand, I face similar arguements in my on team and in my own alliance. But what you said is correct. To win this game we will all have to work together or lego with their isolation and production will have a huge advantage. May I ask if the other parties were ND or RP or internal to GS? Best wishes and still hopeful for a mutually beneficial arraingement in the future. Aggie

	15-12-2003 07:54									#230
	To Aggie Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Aggie, It's no surprise that you also see Lego as an immediate threat requiring a unified response, but does your team? Obviously GS's withdrawal from Bob was going to shake up the grand alliance. One permutation is that GoW and Lego might ally against ND, and that GoW would be prepared to help Lego win the game, while persuing their vendetta against GS. This is a perfectly legitimate playstyle, of course - but it does little to encourage GS into believing that GoW is a side it can reliably do business with. BigFree has (quite dramatically) rejected the notion of a 4-way peace deal on Bob - which was why I said 'scrub that idea' - but it's still possible that a settlement could now be reached which excluded RP - and could even see them removed from the game. Yes, you did read that correctly. You spoke about a possible deal for the cities still under our control in Spain and mentioned tech. We are, in fact, only a couple of turns away from gunpowder. Do you have other techs that you could trade? Regards, CH

followed by an update on RP

quote: I have an update from GS to GoW to clarify - or possibly confuse. We've had word from other RP-ers telling us that BigFree's position is not in fact the official position of the team - that remains to be determined. It might also explain why they're holding the turn. PS - are you sure you want us off Bob? - you might appreciate another couple dozen knights to help whack Pamplona - j/k

	17-12-2003 18:19									#231
	to Aggie - re: cease fire Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Hi Aggie, Our troops continue with their evacuation of Bob. It should take two more turns after this one to complete the operation, so if the boat-planning is correct we should be all gone on our 420AD turn. Meanwhile, until a formal peace is established - is it OK to agree on a cease-fire while we evacuate and until an in-game peace is established? If so, could a public announcement of a cease-fire be made by GS & ratified by GoW on the public forum? Regards, Cort

	17-12-2003 22:58									#232
	from Aggie Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Yes of course. I meant to send peace this turn but forgot I think. On the research front we are closing in on Chem. After you finsih gunpowder it might make sense to do 1 of 2 things. Either go for the upper one or hold at 0% until we get Chem and then rush to metalurgy. such potential deals are being debated on our forum etc as we speak.

	23-12-2003 15:23									#233
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From Aggie:

quote: Here's an idea. Give us a price for Barcelona and any other city. We'll then determine if it's worth it to get the city. This would do wonders for good will. Also it would open the bazaar up and we do need to all start trading. We are approaching chem. Perhaps we could also start some tech negotiations and collaboration.

	23-12-2003 15:25									#234
	from MZ Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Greeting to our Stormian friends. There are two issues that we would like to bring forward with your team: 1) Given that we agreed not to interrupt the evacuation of GS troops from southern Bob we would like to receive an assurance that GS will not raze those cities which are currently under its occupation in the continent. 2) We would like to schedule a "post-war" chat with your team since there is much to discuss especially tech and lux trades and the overall post-war situation as well as any other topics that GS wishes to bring up. Best regards and happy holidays -Master Zen GoW CoFA

	23-12-2003 16:10									#235
	reply to MZ Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Thankyou for your message, MZ. It has been posted on our forum for discussion, but meanwhile here are couple of thoughts. 1) GS are at peace with GoW, but not yet with ND - from whom we have not recieved a reply to recent suggestions of peace. While we are still at war with ND, they could take the cities. Further, whilst there is a theoretical possibility of a deal being done with these cities, we would naturally have to discuss the situation with the original owners of those cities, who, as you will understand, are slightly sore at the moment. 2) A post-war chat sounds an excellent idea. I'm sure GS will look forward to it Best Regards, Cort Haus

	24-12-2003 19:24									#236
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Uh, I'm not going to put a log quote here, but...

Hold the horses, or Riders as it may be.

I have had a PM from an unexpected party on GoW asking if we would like to re-open discussions on a deal. Evidently, all is not hunky dory on Bob! I was asked to hold it in confidence, so I am just posting this way.

Let's not do anything precipitous, either in public or private, while chasing this opportunity down (good timing for me, as I am basically on holiday after lunch today, and can re-invigorate my participation here).

	24-12-2003 19:36									#237
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Wow!

	26-12-2003 20:21									#238
	to MZ Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Hi MZ, We have the turn, and in anticipation of possible GS-GoW co-operation and friendship, can continue to hold Barcelona and New Madrid for the time being. Whilst they are being held but not defended, there is the possibility of ND taking these cities - so if you guys are saying "don't disband them yet" we have to assume that you're not asking us to hold them for your allies to take, perhaps on your behalf. We have gunpowder and can finally see the Saltpeter. Interestingly, we were holding some near Barc (and had settlers there recently), which helps us to understand the value GoW would place on Barcelona. Would you be interested in trading tech for Barcelona and New Madrid? We should say that New Madrid has been a buggy city on some players PC's, but not fatally on mine. All the citizens are Chinese, not Spanish. The row of heads of the chinese citizens are invisible on the city screen on my PC, but apart from that the city functions as normal. If you were interested, we don't know what technology you may have to offer - other than chemistry in a few turn's time. We will probably research astronomy in the meantime (won't take us long) - unless we had news that might sugegst alternative paths. Regards, Cort.

	29-12-2003 17:54									#239
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to MZ and Aggie

quote: Hi MZ - we still haven't heard from you regarding the fate of Barc and New Madrid. It's our turn again, and we can get all our units off now for a final farewell. Any news? (cc Aggie)

	29-12-2003 23:11									#240
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

from Aggie:

quote: Thanks for the info. Could you be so kind as to hold the turn until we have discussed this more. I have posted a proposal on the forum and need to see reaction first. Also we have not yet recieved a peace offer from RP, could you put some pressure on them to make peace. My fear is that they intend to use the perpetual war for ww, even though the fighting is over. If your deal with them doesn't let you make them make peace would you be willing to allow us to take those cities, we'd then gift them all back to you. I think both GS/GOW agree that perpetual war for ww is an exploit. Aggie

and my reply

quote: We can wait, and we should be able to persuade RP to make peace too. While we're at it, maybe we could consider a luxury trade this turn too.