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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:32
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"The Japanese surrender offer put before Truman on August 10th, still insisted on retention of the emperor. Only Secretary of State Byrnes was reluctant to accept it. Truman opted for a response asserting that the Japanese message met American terms with the understanding that the emperor would be subject to the Allied supreme commander. At a Cabinet meeting, he declared there would be no more atomic bombings. Secretary of Commerce Henry Wallace recorded his attitude: 'He said the thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible. He didn't like the idea of killing, as he said, "all those kids"'.
The Allies gave their approval to American terms. Japan remained silent. On August 13th, Truman authorised one last terrible 1,000-plane raid on Tokyo. Presiding over a final meeting of his War Council, Hirohito demanded acceptance of the United States offer. Within twenty-four hours die-hard army officers attempted a coup d'etat that was barely suppressed. On August 14th, late in the afternoon, the United States received Japanese acceptance of American surrender terms. That evening, Truman announced that the Second World War was over and declared a two-day holiday. For a moment it was possible to hope that the destruction of the enemy meant the birth of a hopeful new world."
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/...cle.jhtml?term=
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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by cyclotron7
Have any of you ever been to the atomic bomb museum in Hiroshima? I have, and it doesn't say a whole lot about the Enola Gay. I think it might have named the plane, but that's about it. There was certainly no mention of the technical specs of the plane or anything even remotely close to that.
I come up with two conclusions from that:
One, it is the bomb, not the plane, that matters,
And two, that just as technical specs do not belong in an atomic bomb memorial museum, memorials do not belong in an air and space museum. |
Well said.
The problem is, those of us unfortunate enough to be whimsical social science people don't understand why we have technical museums.
Much like I don't expect any computer museum hosting the ENIAC to go into a large political tirade about its use...but you just know some thick-black-wire-frame-glassic baret-wearing wingnut will protest and cry out "Oh the humanity, this is shameful!" just so somebody thinks he is useful.
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cyclotron7
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Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
The problem is, those of us unfortunate enough to be whimsical social science people don't understand why we have technical museums.
Much like I don't expect any computer museum hosting the ENIAC to go into a large political tirade about its use...but you just know some thick-black-wire-frame-glassic baret-wearing wingnut will protest and cry out "Oh the humanity, this is shameful!" just so somebody thinks he is useful. |
Well, it's impossible to disconnect things entirely from their moral worth. Clearly, nobody who sees the Enola Gay is going to think "hmm, nice plane" and then keep walking without thinking about the atomic bomb, and quite possibly about the people who died.
The idea is that, while we have to accept you can't make everything perfectly value neutral in any circumstance, we should at least not try to import further moral judgement into a place that is not intended for that purpose. We can't see memorials everywhere we go; that's just dwelling on the past, and its unfair to people who come for the technology exhibited, not the moral judgements.
Ned:
quote:
There are many here who justify and have justified the refusal to apologize because of Japan's own war crimes. I say, two wrongs do not make a right. But even if Japan's actions against us were war crimes, they certainly did not justify the scale of response we gave in return. |
You are missing the point that I am making. War does not work like this: I bomb you, so you bomb me in a fair manner relative to my action, then it proceeds *** for tat until somebody has enough.
No. When you are at war, the objective is not to exchange equal blows, but to utterly defeat the enemy, which requires that you use as unequal a blow as you can. Whatever you think about the morality of dropping the A-bombs, you cannot say that it was "unjustified," as we were in a state of total war.
Of course, people who refuse to apologize because of Japan's badness are making the same error as you, so I agree with you that they are off target too.
quote:
The bombs certainly were effective in ending the war. This does not mean they were necessary to end the war. |
See, now you're getting it. I've said that in war everyone tries to use unequal force, but it's debatable whether the force was too unequal for the situation. "Could a lesser blow have worked" is a valid question, but also an overdone one, so I say we let it rest here.
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18-12-2003 09:37
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