18-12-2003 14:31									#181
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm speechless.

	18-12-2003 14:32									#182
	Remove this text

good

	18-12-2003 14:36									#183
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Surely you don't think it's a good idea to destroy history? Most holocaust survivors I have spoken to are glad Auschwitz is still around, so people can visit and understand what happened, that we might not do it again. I really don't think the victims of these thiings would like your suggestion very much.

	18-12-2003 14:39									#184
	Inflate your Upload Space

What do you expect, cyclotron, he's European... they love to cover up history over there .

	18-12-2003 14:44									#185
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's so depressing... that I'm going to bed.

	18-12-2003 14:45									#186
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

far more jews go to holocaust museums than any other ethnicity

they want it

so do we, the first world, who let it happen

I am sad that those who helped accomplish it are not similiarly interested

Jon Miller

	18-12-2003 14:46									#187
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This exhibition shows the lack of judgement and taste of the presenters...

	18-12-2003 16:01									#188
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What do you expect, cyclotron, he's European... they love to cover up history over there .

Yeah, as opposed to Americans who never learn history (Europe? Where is that?), forget it (how many times did we subvert Central American countries? Who cares, C.S.I. is on dude!), reinvent it (U 571, The Patriot, yada, yada, yada) or Disneyfy it (come and see ye olde worlde picturesque pilgrims, Indian massacres omitted).

Or ignore it.

Auschwitz is a world heritage site, so won't nobody be doing to much to it any time soon.

	18-12-2003 16:59									#189
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Dissident If we start erasing our history, we will begin to repeat it.

And then the Germans will be singing, "Uber-dubbing over Alles" as they re-record it.

	18-12-2003 17:18									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Nothing the Japanese did during the war, not even Pearl Harbor, justified those actions. Nothing.

so nothing "justifies" those explosions? not even the systematic destruction of the korean culture. or the theft and rape of thousands of korean women to be used as "comfort women" for the troops. or the theft and destruction of innumerable historical treasures in korea. or the slave labor factories populated with koreans. or the women gang raped to death in nanjing. or the use of poison gas and bacteria in manchuria. or the use of young korean and chinese males as cannon fodder against the allies. or the near-starvation conditions koreans and chinese were put in after being forced to send every single bit of produce to japan.

and somehow, compared to all that... you want me to act as if those who died in the atomic blast are somehow more worthy of pity than those the japanese murdered?

no, two wrongs don't make a right. but remembering and greiving over one wrong while trying to ignore every last trace of the other is a third wrong. and unlike lefts, those don't make a right either.

	18-12-2003 17:32									#191
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Nothing the Japanese did during the war, not even Pearl Harbor, justified those actions. Nothing. so nothing "justifies" those explosions? not even the systematic destruction of the korean culture. or the theft and rape of thousands of korean women to be used as "comfort women" for the troops. or the theft and destruction of innumerable historical treasures in korea. or the slave labor factories populated with koreans. or the women gang raped to death in nanjing. or the use of poison gas and bacteria in manchuria. or the use of young korean and chinese males as cannon fodder against the allies. or the near-starvation conditions koreans and chinese were put in after being forced to send every single bit of produce to japan. and somehow, compared to all that... you want me to act as if those who died in the atomic blast are somehow more worthy of pity than those the japanese murdered? no, two wrongs don't make a right. but remembering and greiving over one wrong while trying to ignore every last trace of the other is a third wrong. and unlike lefts, those don't make a right either.

Actually, I think there should be more focus on the atomic bombs from the west, because we where responsible for that atrocity. Would you rather we focus on atrocities done by other cultures over the ones we do ourselves?

	18-12-2003 17:35									#192
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

that's not what i'm saying

what i'm saying is that the japanese like pretending that they were the only victims, which is bullshit.

	18-12-2003 17:39									#193
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'd say that the bombs are both justified based upon a pure analysis of the numbers. If the allies invaded they expected 1 million allied casualties and something like 10 million Japanese casualties. To compare even if you include people who died years later then less then 500,000 people died as a result of both explosions.

Which is worse 11 million deaths or 500,000 deaths?

	18-12-2003 17:41									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Everybody was a victim in WW2.

I don't want to talk about wheter the use of A-bomb was justified or not - it's pointless. It was used and that it.

	18-12-2003 17:47									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ned, from your own article:

quote: Originally posted by Ned Truman opted for a response asserting that the Japanese message met American terms with the understanding that the emperor would be subject to the Allied supreme commander. Presiding over a final meeting of his War Council, Hirohito demanded acceptance of the United States offer. On August 14th, late in the afternoon, the United States received Japanese acceptance of American surrender terms

You'll note the American offer was unconditional surrender. Case rested.

	18-12-2003 17:49									#196
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd say that the bombs are both justified based upon a pure analysis of the numbers. If the allies invaded they expected 1 million allied casualties and something like 10 million Japanese casualties. To compare even if you include people who died years later then less then 500,000 people died as a result of both explosions. Which is worse 11 million deaths or 500,000 deaths?

Those numbers are highly debatable, and make the assumption that an allied land invasion was necessary at all. I think that's where the crux of the debate comes from. Many top allied officials, including people ranking as high as Eisenhower, believed the bombs were not necessary and Japan would have surrendered anyway by December.

	18-12-2003 18:06									#197
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Actually, I think there should be more focus on the atomic bombs from the west, because we where responsible for that atrocity. Would you rather we focus on atrocities done by other cultures over the ones we do ourselves?

No, I don't think we should. Koreans, Indians, Burmese, Viet Namese, Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Filipinos and Pacific Islanders all suffered under the supposedly 'liberating' anti-colonialist Japanese.
It was a similar situation to that following the English Civil Wars, when the Commonwealth collapsed and Charles II returned. The Act of Oblivion and Indemnity was described as oblivion for the King's friends and indemnity for his enemies. In some respects the facts of Japanese atrocities and the perpetrators were consigned to oblivion and indemnified respectively, because the Commies were the new enemy, and victims of the Japanese should have the good grace to be quiet and get with the programme.

There was no equivalent of glasnost in Japan post WWII, no truth and reconciliation commission to weed out unrepentant militarists and those who took part in atrocities. What is worse is that scientific research into germ warfare by the Japanese was used by the Americans, and in the post WWII Red scare climate, Japanese troops were used to police the European colonies they had previously been occupying, and Korean collaborators were 'reinstalled' in positions of power.

I'd still be angry if I had been a Korean comfort woman (what a disgusting euphemism for a victim of serial rapes, press ganged into prostitution), or if my father or grandfather had been killed and eaten by Japanese soldiers.

	18-12-2003 18:27									#198
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom No, I don't think we should.

Why not? Atrocities done by your own culture are the worst.

	18-12-2003 21:31									#199
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Those numbers are highly debatable, and make the assumption that an allied land invasion was necessary at all. I think that's where the crux of the debate comes from. Many top allied officials, including people ranking as high as Eisenhower, believed the bombs were not necessary and Japan would have surrendered anyway by December.

Now this is a good argument against the necessity of dropping the atomic bombs. The primary defense of dropping them is that they saved lives, not vengence. But that argument is based on the Allies analysis of their casualties in taking the mainland.

I think before the bombs were dropped an invasion of the mainland was inevitable for victory and to humble the Japanese mentality. If they were not resoundly defeated they would probably have kept their arrogance and racial superiority concepts, just setting asia up for another great war.

Once the bombs were dropped and Russia declared war on Japan out of fear it would be over and Russia wouldn't be in a position to bargain for holdings, an invasion of the mainland wouldn't seem to be warranted. But, then that all developed from the dropping of the bombs in the first place.

	18-12-2003 21:36									#200
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

good

	18-12-2003 23:44									#201
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: There are many here who justify and have justified the refusal to apologize because of Japan's own war crimes. And there are many who feel we have no need to apologize because it was a legitimate military weapon in a total war. quote: Truman finally accepted the Japanese offer of conditional surrender. Can you not read, Ned? The Japanese UNCONDITIONALLY SURRENDERED!

As to one, yes. Many do feel the bombing was justified. It is assumed by these folks that the bombs were necessary to end the war without an invasion. But most Americans are never taught the full facts surrounding the final months and that Japan had much earlier had "offered" to surrender on essentially the same terms they in fact did surrender. The question is, would the knowledge of these facts change their views.

As to two, I have an hard time understanding where you are coming from. The only condition they insisted upon was that they retain the emperor, and we agreed to that. Why do you insist that the facts are different?

	18-12-2003 23:46									#202
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Why do you keep saying conditional surrender, Ned?

Because the condition was retention of the Emperor.

That condition was ACCEPTED.

	18-12-2003 23:47									#203
	Suffering from ads?

It seems that the main problem people are having is the word "atomic." Even with radiation poisoning, they were hardly the worst weapons we had. A hundred plane conventional firebombing raid, which incidently cost less than the Manhatten program, was far more destructive. So we will just call the "big freaking " bomb instead.

Basically, if you don't support every piece of history that has ever directly or inderectly caused harm to a person having a casualty figure plaque and monumnet next to it, you are a hipocrit.

The word "atomic" is not magic, or evil. When dynomite came out it was magnitudes more destructive than the nearist equivalent. And did it turn out to be evil? Eventially nukes will be eclipsed (some say bio has it already) and the word will be as scarry as , oh my god not a TANK!!!! Is that a MACHINE GUN, THE WORLD IS AT AN END!!!!


-Pat

	18-12-2003 23:49									#204
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It wasn't accepted, it was denied and they surrendered with out it and later, out of the goodness of our hearts, we decided to let them have it. See we are not just nuke weilding world destroyers.

-Pat

	18-12-2003 23:49									#205
	Inflate your Upload Space

Most Japanese are not taught anything at all about the butchery their soldiers did.

	18-12-2003 23:50									#206
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by laurentius IMO The plane should be destroyed.

No, the plane should be accompanied by the truth. One of the truths was that Truman announced that we had bombed "Hiroshima, a military base."

Just reading that statement will tell people a lot.

	18-12-2003 23:51									#207
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos It wasn't accepted, it was denied and they surrendered with out it and later, out of the goodness of our hearts, we decided to let them have it.

I am still amazed by how rosy your image of the US is. Is your country the new incarnation of Jesus or something?

	18-12-2003 23:58									#208
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I like this comment

""They (Japan) started the war by bombing our servicemen in Pearl Harbor. They should go and stand on the deck of the Arizona," said one man referring to a US ship sunk in the raid, now a memorial. "

I wonder if he understood exactly what he was saying?

There was no military necessity to use the atomic bombs. Obviously we could have destroyed the Japanese cities the same way we did Tokyo and Dresden. It probably would have killed more people that way and allowed the war to drag on so that the Soviets would have claimed more Japanese islands (possibly the mainlands).

	18-12-2003 23:58									#209
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Ned: You are missing the point that I am making. War does not work like this: I bomb you, so you bomb me in a fair manner relative to my action, then it proceeds *** for tat until somebody has enough. No. When you are at war, the objective is not to exchange equal blows, but to utterly defeat the enemy, which requires that you use as unequal a blow as you can. Whatever you think about the morality of dropping the A-bombs, you cannot say that it was "unjustified," as we were in a state of total war.

TOTAL WAR?

I can assure you that to the extent the American people actually learned about the attrocities we were committing in their name, they were entirely revolted. Dresden is the primary example. When announcing Hiroshima, Truman had to say it was a "military base." Else he would have been publicly lynched in the press.

Blow for blow, yes. But not against innocent civilians. Not against the elderly. Not against women. Not against children.

Even Truman began to understand and be revolted by the horror he was imposing on Japan. He called a halt and accepted the conditional surrender that Japan had been offering for some time.

	19-12-2003 00:05									#210
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Ned: See, now you're getting it. I've said that in war everyone tries to use unequal force, but it's debatable whether the force was too unequal for the situation. "Could a lesser blow have worked" is a valid question, but also an overdone one, so I say we let it rest here.

What you fail to understand, C, is that Japan was prepared to surrender in June and perhaps even by April. They had had enough. IIRC, the Emperor had fired Tojo in April, replaced him with a new PM and given him directions to negotiate a surrender. The government communicated the offer to enter into surrender negotiations to the Russians who passed it on to Truman. Truman ignore the offer.