19-12-2003 00:09									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: Nothing the Japanese did during the war, not even Pearl Harbor, justified those actions. Nothing. so nothing "justifies" those explosions? not even the systematic destruction of the korean culture. or the theft and rape of thousands of korean women to be used as "comfort women" for the troops. or the theft and destruction of innumerable historical treasures in korea. or the slave labor factories populated with koreans. or the women gang raped to death in nanjing. or the use of poison gas and bacteria in manchuria. or the use of young korean and chinese males as cannon fodder against the allies. or the near-starvation conditions koreans and chinese were put in after being forced to send every single bit of produce to japan. and somehow, compared to all that... you want me to act as if those who died in the atomic blast are somehow more worthy of pity than those the japanese murdered? no, two wrongs don't make a right. but remembering and greiving over one wrong while trying to ignore every last trace of the other is a third wrong. and unlike lefts, those don't make a right either.

Q-Cubed, placing the war criminals on trial and executing them (I am sure that you would prefer that penalty in the case of the Japanese) is quite a bit different that mass slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children in revenge.

	19-12-2003 00:10									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Actually, I think there should be more focus on the atomic bombs from the west, because we where responsible for that atrocity. Would you rather we focus on atrocities done by other cultures over the ones we do ourselves?

Finally! Maybe I am making a little headway here.

	19-12-2003 00:14									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You'll note the American offer was unconditional surrender. Case rested.

Boris, we do NOT agree on this.

	19-12-2003 00:14									#214
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Fat Man and Little Boy, they sure did put the fear of science into everyone... Behold the destructive abilities of man, we surely will be our own ruin.

	19-12-2003 00:21									#215
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom There was no equivalent of glasnost in Japan post WWII, no truth and reconciliation commission to weed out unrepentant militarists and those who took part in atrocities. What is worse is that scientific research into germ warfare by the Japanese was used by the Americans, and in the post WWII Red scare climate, Japanese troops were used to police the European colonies they had previously been occupying, and Korean collaborators were 'reinstalled' in positions of power.

Molly, I think MacArthur did root out the militarists from positions of power. War criminals were arrested, tried and hanged. They were given a new constitution banning a military.

Perphaps you objection might be that this was not "thorough" because we left the Emperor and his government largely in place. This allowed the Japanese some dignity, but it also allowed them to believe that what they did was "not wrong" to the extent that the government did not apologize.

	19-12-2003 00:27									#216
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Now this is a good argument against the necessity of dropping the atomic bombs. The primary defense of dropping them is that they saved lives, not vengence. But that argument is based on the Allies analysis of their casualties in taking the mainland. I think before the bombs were dropped an invasion of the mainland was inevitable for victory and to humble the Japanese mentality. If they were not resoundly defeated they would probably have kept their arrogance and racial superiority concepts, just setting asia up for another great war. Once the bombs were dropped and Russia declared war on Japan out of fear it would be over and Russia wouldn't be in a position to bargain for holdings, an invasion of the mainland wouldn't seem to be warranted. But, then that all developed from the dropping of the bombs in the first place.

G, the invasion plans had largely been developed prior to the Japanese offers to enter into surrender negotiations. Thereafter, everyone knew that an invasion was NOT necessary to get Japan to surrender. Many, if not most, of the top command favored an immediate surrender so as to FOESTALL a Soviet entry into the war - primarily because of all the difficulties they were causing in Europe.

(Perhaps some Truman advisors were working for Stalin and were trying to get him to not end the war before Russia entered it.)

	19-12-2003 00:32									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos It wasn't accepted, it was denied and they surrendered with out it and later, out of the goodness of our hearts, we decided to let them have it. -Pat

Pat, please get a link or post to the actual document signed on August 14. It is clear that continuity of the Emperor was not optional.

	19-12-2003 00:34									#218
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I like this comment ""They (Japan) started the war by bombing our servicemen in Pearl Harbor. They should go and stand on the deck of the Arizona," said one man referring to a US ship sunk in the raid, now a memorial. " I wonder if he understood exactly what he was saying? There was no military necessity to use the atomic bombs. Obviously we could have destroyed the Japanese cities the same way we did Tokyo and Dresden. It probably would have killed more people that way and allowed the war to drag on so that the Soviets would have claimed more Japanese islands (possibly the mainlands).

Or possibly we could have ended the war in June when the Japanese offered to surrender.

	19-12-2003 00:35									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Ned G, the invasion plans had largely been developed prior to the Japanese offers to enter into surrender negotiations.

I'm glad we agree.

	19-12-2003 00:37									#220
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Ned, what the civilians of the USA may or may not mave been revolted by does not change the nature of the war. Governments on every side were perfectly willing to bomb the crap out of civilians when they thought it suited their purpose or if they beleived it was neccessary. Again, moral judgements have to be made in those circumstances, but it doesn't make sense to complain that the blows were out of proportion to one another, given that the whole point of war is to overpower your enemy.

quote: Even Truman began to understand and be revolted by the horror he was imposing on Japan. He called a halt and accepted the conditional surrender that Japan had been offering for some time... What you fail to understand, C, is that Japan was prepared to surrender in June and perhaps even by April. They had had enough. IIRC, the Emperor had fired Tojo in April, replaced him with a new PM and given him directions to negotiate a surrender. The government communicated the offer to enter into surrender negotiations to the Russians who passed it on to Truman. Truman ignore the offer.

I already told you, that question is way overdone. I shouldn't have to remind you of all the massive threads full of arguing over whether these bombs were justified. I'm not apologizing for Truman or anyone else, I'm just pointing out that using Japanese actions to "justify" or not justify the bombs misses the basic point of a war.

	19-12-2003 00:49									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Or possibly we could have ended the war in June when the Japanese offered to surrender.

So you feel (60 years on) that we should have accepted a conditional surrender from Japan but unconditional surrender from Germany?

	19-12-2003 00:56									#222
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Ned, what the civilians of the USA may or may not mave been revolted by does not change the nature of the war. Governments on every side were perfectly willing to bomb the crap out of civilians when they thought it suited their purpose or if they beleived it was neccessary. Again, moral judgements have to be made in those circumstances, but it doesn't make sense to complain that the blows were out of proportion to one another, given that the whole point of war is to overpower your enemy. I already told you, that question is way overdone. I shouldn't have to remind you of all the massive threads full of arguing over whether these bombs were justified. I'm not apologizing for Truman or anyone else, I'm just pointing out that using Japanese actions to "justify" or not justify the bombs misses the basic point of a war.

The decision to bomb Japan with the A bomb is considered one of the best examples of applied anthropology, even though it had grave effects. The Japanese were not prepared to surrender, and Anthropologists at the time (something like 2/3 of all anthropologists in the world at that time were employed by the US War Department), through enthographic research, realized that Japan would not surrender until the Emperor surrendered, and that the Emperor would only surrender if he was humiliated. Dropping the bomb(s) accomplished just this in a matter of hours.

	19-12-2003 01:05									#223
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So you feel (60 years on) that we should have accepted a conditional surrender from Japan but unconditional surrender from Germany?

My point is that we in fact accepted the condition in August that was offered in June.

	19-12-2003 01:06									#224
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Ned, It is uncontrovertable truth that the Japanese had no intention of surrendering beforet the bomb, and it is undeniable truth that the only reason they did after the bombing is becasue the emperor forced them too. You may be right in that they offered conditional surrender, but as has been stated, over an over again at nauseum, that was in no way shape or form acceptable. Hiroshima was a military base, in fact I het you could have dropped a bomba t randam at that time and hit a military base. Hiroshima, like any other idustrial/military support center, was a legitimate target. The details of the deaths of the civilians IE burning to death in a much more brutal firebombing or being instatly killed in a flash DOES NOT MATTER.

-Pat

	19-12-2003 01:07									#225
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We didn't accept a thing Ned, we gavd them something later as a completely different measure.

	19-12-2003 01:09									#226
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Ned, my last post was for you.

	19-12-2003 01:09									#227
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JCC, still, the offer to surrender after TWO bombs was essentially the same as earlier - keep the Emperor.

This is why I think the use of the bomb had a lot to do with the USSR. I think Truman wanted to use to impress the Soviets. There is also some lingering doubt that some in Truman's administration wanted to delay the end of the war until the Soviet entry so that the Soviets could share in the spoils.

	19-12-2003 01:12									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Ned, It is uncontrovertable truth that the Japanese had no intention of surrendering beforet the bomb, and it is undeniable truth that the only reason they did after the bombing is becasue the emperor forced them too. You may be right in that they offered conditional surrender, but as has been stated, over an over again at nauseum, that was in no way shape or form acceptable. -Pat

Since the critical show-stopping condition was the preservation of the Emperor and given that we did accept that condition, I disagree that the conditional offer to surrender was unacceptable.

	19-12-2003 01:12									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Ned My point is that we in fact accepted the condition in August that was offered in June.

Things change, we didnt want the Soviets to grab Japan.

	19-12-2003 01:22									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Hiroshima was a military base, in fact I het you could have dropped a bomba t randam at that time and hit a military base. Hiroshima, like any other idustrial/military support center, was a legitimate target. The details of the deaths of the civilians IE burning to death in a much more brutal firebombing or being instatly killed in a flash DOES NOT MATTER. -Pat

Pat, we dropped leaflets on all prior targets warning of an impending attack so the city could be evacuated. We did not do so in the case of Hiroshima. Up to Hiroshima, the targets were military in nature and we did try to avoid civilian casualties.

We the people of American learned of Dresden, there was massive dismay. There is little doubt that Truman said "military base" in order to disquise the truth from the public.

Civilian casualties did matter to the United States then - both to the military and to the people. We were not then as callous as you think we were. Not even the military was that callous.

	19-12-2003 01:23									#231
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Things change, we didnt want the Soviets to grab Japan.

THAT is not why Truman changed his position. I quoted you his exact words earlier. He changed his position because he was sickened of the mass slaughter of innocent kids.

	19-12-2003 02:38									#232
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He didnt care about Tokyo, but all of a sudden he cares about kids?

	19-12-2003 03:05									#233
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH He didnt care about Tokyo, but all of a sudden he cares about kids?

Spencer, rather than debate with me what he said, why don't you read what he said. I quoted when he said an earlier post.

	19-12-2003 03:14									#234
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quote: As to two, I have an hard time understanding where you are coming from. The only condition they insisted upon was that they retain the emperor, and we agreed to that. Why do you insist that the facts are different?

You have no understanding of politics as is aware. Simply because we ALLOWED the Emperor to have a figurehead role does not mean the US accepted a conditional surrender. There is quite a difference between accepting a surrender with demands by the surrenderee and accepting an unconditional surrender and then allowing, out of our kindness, those things they asked for in the beginning.

It is to assert who is in charge. And no, it wasn't a conditional surrender since we decided to allow them their one request out of the kindness of our hearts.

	19-12-2003 03:36									#235
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Imran has a point. Do you really think that the Japanese would have kept fighting even if we had said "no, tough, can't keep the emperor"?

The surrender was unconditional, but we thought it would work in our favor and help win support for the surrender among the Japanese officials and people if we let them keep their figurehead.

	19-12-2003 03:37									#236
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He is palying Monday morning quarterback, and can't separate what he sees to the same, am unconditional surrender where we gave them what they want anyways and a conditional surrender where we recognize the authority of a murderous regime to negotiate on par with us.

-Pat

	19-12-2003 03:43									#237
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Exactly, when Hirohito decided to surrender he fully anticipated having to advocate, and probobly commit suicide. I bet he had a pretty big smile on his face when we dicided to leave him.

-Pat

	19-12-2003 03:50									#238
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It was Hirohito, I believe, who told the Japanese people in a statement to "bear the unbearable" American occupation. The retention of the emperor was probably a nice coup for Hirohito, but it was also a pretty sound decision on the part of the American command, giving some legitimacy to the American occupation.

	19-12-2003 03:50									#239
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I think we are splitting hairs here. Forget words. The Japanese were offering to surrender as early as June and probably earlier on essentially the same terms as they did surrender on August 13-14.

Now that we got the word "conditional" out of the way, can we move on to a discussion of whether the use of the bomb was "necessary?"

	19-12-2003 03:53									#240
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quote: The Japanese were offering to surrender

CONDITIONAL surrender, yes.

quote: on essentially the same terms as they did surrender on August 13-14.

Once again, you ignore the main difference. WE decided to let the emperor stay. WE were the ones that showed we are in charge.

quote: can we move on to a discussion of whether the use of the bomb was "necessary?"

Ok... yes it was.