19-12-2003 04:00									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Once again, you ignore the main difference. WE decided to let the emperor stay. WE were the ones that showed we are in charge.

Rape. Refused their surrender conditions, then droped two nukes on them, and then let them have it after all? Disgusting.

	19-12-2003 04:18									#242
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What if their surrender conditon had been to keep their Chinese territory? That seems like a good exchange for not dropping nukes. The Chinses would love that one. It comes to a differenace of opinion, you believe negotiaoing with genecideal murders as well as leaving them in power and legitmizing their philosphy in Japan for the next hundred years is less damaging than dropping two atomic bombs. I believe the opposite. I am right and you are wrong.

So once again what is your arguement, sense the surrender hypothosis is false, lives would not have been saved if the bombers were not dropped, dropping them did in fact save lives, dropping them saved the rest of Japan from bieng a ruined shell as a result of Downfall, also made the Japanese a free democratic society, ended a world war, and forced mass murderers to recend power. Obviously human life means nothing too you, as you obvious prefer invasion (the option most costly in human life). Apparently you have no problems with facists and genecidal murderers staying power because you want to negotiate with them.

So far the only the only reason you oppose the bombs use was that it was "atomic." I don't like bright lights either. If you find burining to death in Tokyo to be so different than bieng killed instantly in a shock wave (for the most part), tell me the big difference that is in favor your position.

-Pat

	19-12-2003 04:20									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos What if their surrender conditon had been to keep their Chinese territory? -Pat

It wasn't. The Japanese weren't offering to surrender on a condition to be named later, but offering to surrender if the Emperor would be untouched. Not that reality seems to matter much to you.

	19-12-2003 04:21									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Rape. Refused their surrender conditions, then droped two nukes on them, and then let them have it after all? Disgusting.

Exactly. This is why the Truman history revisionists were so desparate in the early post-war years.

	19-12-2003 04:28									#245
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quote: Refused their surrender conditions, then droped two nukes on them, and then let them have it after all? Disgusting.

No, good politics. You don't let them demand to you what they want. You make them surrender and then allow them, out of the goodness of your heart, to keep their requests. That is the way you do things, so that you avoid any chance of a pre-WW2 Germany occuring.

	19-12-2003 04:29									#246
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It wasn't. The Japanese weren't offering to surrender on a condition to be named later, but offering to surrender if the Emperor would be untouched. Not that reality seems to matter much to you.

Che, I am glad to see we are on the same side on this issue.

BTW, how did you feel when you saw the communist party celibration in Baghdad the day Saddam "conditionally" surrendered.

	19-12-2003 04:30									#247
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quote: if some German museum was displaying a death chamber in all its technological glory,

There are no Death Chamber Museums, but there are lots of Airplane Museums. If there were a DCM, then I would have no problem with its relevant content--a death chamber--being displayed in it.

Likewise, an Airplane museum usually holds airplanes...does anyone here have a good guess of what the Enola Gay is?

	19-12-2003 04:32									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, I am glad to see we are on the same side on this issue.

Not quite the same side. While I agree that the offer was made, I think MtG made a convincing case a year or so back when he argued that without the context o the bombing and the Soviet invasion, had the Japanese government offered to surrender, even conditionally, it would have been overthrown by diehards. I still think we should have explored the option. It's always possible that it might have saved lives. Hirohito was a war criminal, and deserved to be tried and executed, but not at the cost of a quarter million people who could have ben spared, especially when we didn' execute the monster.

quote: BTW, how did you feel when you saw the communist party celibration in Baghdad the day Saddam "conditionally" surrendered.

Saddam is an evil, evil man. Why shouldn't they be happy to see he's gonna get what's coming to him? They suffered greatly under Saddam. The honest truth, I was happy, cuz I got to see my guys in the press, and not demonized. I just wish it had been they who got rid of Hussein.

	19-12-2003 04:37									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Refused their surrender conditions, then droped two nukes on them, and then let them have it after all? Disgusting. No, good politics. You don't let them demand to you what they want. You make them surrender and then allow them, out of the goodness of your heart, to keep their requests. That is the way you do things, so that you avoid any chance of a pre-WW2 Germany occuring.

If you think killing hundreds of thousands of people just to show that you can is good politics, I really don't care what you have to say.

	19-12-2003 04:40									#250
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quote: If you think killing hundreds of thousands of peoeple just to show you can is good politics

Let's forget the part of by taking an unconditional surrender we may have stopped a Germany like revival of the Japanese country.

And war is simply politics by other means... so good politics is good war .

	19-12-2003 04:49									#251
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This is getting too out of hand for me. I think it's been decisively shown that the Enoly Gay does not need to have an addition to its plaque, and whether or not you think Japan "deserved" the atomic bombs, well, that's another question.

PS. mrmitchell, you rock.

	19-12-2003 05:02									#252
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Well, Che, your position and mine are the same because I agree that all we could have done was to negotiate acceptable terms along the lines of the August surrender terms. If the government did surrender in June, but was then overthrown, I would then agree that the bomb may have been the only choice.

The problem with Michael the Great's position is he seams argue that we had to use the bomb before negotiations because we knew almost for a certainty that the military would not have accepted the surrender of the government even if that surrender protected the Emperor. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Without having tried, we will never know.

	19-12-2003 05:08									#253
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 This is getting too out of hand for me. I think it's been decisively shown that the Enoly Gay does not need to have an addition to its plaque, and whether or not you think Japan "deserved" the atomic bombs, well, that's another question. PS. mrmitchell, you rock.

Perhaps we ought to "share" the plane with the Japanese. They can display it in Hiroshima and make any kind of statements they please about it.

That would be fair.

	19-12-2003 05:37									#254
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To lay the surrender debate to rest:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/093_03.html

Note that Japan's condition of a guarantee of the sovereignity of the Emperor was outrightly rejected by the U.S. in Byrne's August 11, which specifically addresses that point by saying, in essence, "No, he will be subject to the authority of the Supreme Allied Commander." The Japanese telegram of Aug. 14 accepts that, which means their condition was not met by the U.S. They acquiesced to the Potsdam surrender terms totally. So the surrender was unconditional.

Note Truman says: "I deem this reply a full acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration which specifies the unconditional surrender of Japan"

And the document signed by the Japanese on the U.S.S. Missouri states: "(2) We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated."

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 19-12-2003 at 05:42

	19-12-2003 05:38									#255
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quote: The problem with Michael the Great's position is he seams argue that we had to use the bomb before negotiations because we knew almost for a certainty that the military would not have accepted the surrender of the government even if that surrender protected the Emperor. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Without having tried, we will never know.

You're right--they might have surrendered. Then again, I might really be **** Cheney, and tofu is really made of cocaine.

IIRC, Japan as a nation had never had to surrender in over 1200 years (Hitler Channel program), and if you haven't heard all the repetitive stuff about how dedicated and nonsurrenderlike Japan was, then you haven't lived in the 20th century. Yeah, they could have surrendered--but Hitler could've successfully eliminated the D-Day invasion force, thus we should'nt've tried that. War is about calculated risks, not being nice or fair.

	19-12-2003 07:02									#256
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Boris, the surrender was conditioned on the maintenance of the Emperor. While under the occupation, it was clear that the Emperor had to take orders from McArthur. But after the occupation, it was also clear that he would again be the sovereign to the same extent as the British monarch.

I am very sure that you would agree that if the United States removed the Emperor from power and abolished the monarchy, it would've been a violation of the surrender terms.

With this being the only condition, the surrender of Japan was otherwise unconditional and fully met the terms of the Potsdam declaration.

	19-12-2003 07:07									#257
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have a read, Ned.

quote: Signed at Tokyo Bay, September 2, 1945 We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers. We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated. We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control. We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority. We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration. We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed. The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender. Signed at TOKYO BAY, JAPAN at 0904 I on the SECOND day of SEPTEMBER 1945.

http://www.ndl.go.jp/constitution/e/etc/c05.html

I don't see it mentioning the emperor staying, do you?

	19-12-2003 07:22									#258
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This must be the longest and most bitter thread on a museum exhibit ever.

	19-12-2003 07:29									#259
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You're such a troll.

	19-12-2003 07:31									#260
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're such a troll.

I gave up a while back. The posts were flying too thick and fast for me.

	19-12-2003 07:32									#261
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NYE, Not there, but in the earlier correspondence.

	19-12-2003 07:37									#262
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Ned, that is the document they signed. You are a lawyer, are you not?

	19-12-2003 07:43									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Perhaps we ought to "share" the plane with the Japanese. They can display it in Hiroshima and make any kind of statements they please about it. That would be fair.

1) It isn't their plane. They are very capable of building a replica if they see fit.

2) The Atomic Bomb Museum in Hiroshima makes quite a statement about the bomb and the war without a plane replica. If you think they need a plane to make the kind of statements they are trying to make, you're missing the point.

	19-12-2003 07:44									#264
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OK, NYE, let's parse this.

"We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated.
We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction."

"We" means the Emperor and the goverment acting under his orders.

The Emperor does not surrender. He instead orders the surrender the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, etc. Only that surrender is deemed "unconditional."

	19-12-2003 07:54									#265
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C, but the emotional impact of actually seeing the plane that dropped the bomb would be tremendous. Let's give the plane to the Japanese especially since that plane represents something that the United States should not be proud of.

	19-12-2003 08:03									#266
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"We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam...

We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.

...

We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.
We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.

...

The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender."

And, subsequent to that, MacCarthur forced a new constitution on Japan, the requirement that there be an Emperor not being a requirement for that constitution. The fact that MacCarther was either wise enough or fool enough to leave a figure head on the throne detracts nothing from the fact that Imperial Japan capitulated unconditionally in 1945.

	19-12-2003 08:33									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Ned C, but the emotional impact of actually seeing the plane that dropped the bomb would be tremendous. Let's give the plane to the Japanese especially since that plane represents something that the United States should not be proud of.

Granted, and if the Japanese government really wants it, I see no problem in reaching an agreement. My point is that, given the focus of the Atomic Bomb Museum, they don't really need the plane. The impact of that place is something beyond anything else I've ever felt at a memorial, and I couldn't even read everything that was there. It is not neccessary to have the plane, and in a way I feel it would be cheapened by such trivial artifacts: "this is the plane that dropped the bomb." It doesn't exactly illustrate human suffering or tradgedy.

	19-12-2003 08:46									#268
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Jesus, Ned, now you're really grasping at straws.

AMERICA: Accept these terms.
JAPAN: Well, we have one condition...
AMERICA: No.

BOOM!

AMERICA: Now, accept these terms.
JAPAN: Alright, we accept.
AMERICA: Great. Oh, and since we're feeling generous, you can keep your Emperor.

That is STILL an unconditional surrender, as the U.S. NEVER accepted the Japanese condition. The Americans said it was unconditional surrender. Japan signed a document saying it was an unconditional surrender. You're about the only person in the ENTIRE WORLD who is claiming it wasn't an unconditional surrender.

To put it even more simply, let's say we're at war. I say you have to surrender to me and accept whatever terms I want. You say you'll except anything accept item X. I say, no dice. Accept it all. You say okay. But then, after the fact, I decide to let you have item X anyway. Your surrender was still unconditional, your gaining item X was purely through my generousnes after your surrender. It does not, after the fact, change the surrender to a conditional one.

The correspondence I cited shows, point blank, that Japans condition was rejected by the U.S. They told them to accept the Potsdam terms in toto or the war went on. It was only when Japan accepted the Potsdam terms, with no other conditions, that the surrender was accepted.

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 19-12-2003 at 09:13

	19-12-2003 08:50									#269
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quote: AMERICA: Accept these terms. JAPAN: Well, we have one condition... AMERICA: No. BOOM! AMERICA: Now, accept these conditions. JAPAN: Alright, we accept. AMERICA: Great. Oh, and since we're feeling generous, you can keep your Emperor

Ever thought of writing a historical novel?

	19-12-2003 08:52									#270
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I was thinking it worked more as a play.