22-12-2003 04:12									#31
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 They can't see their ears.

I dont see what the big deal is. if they dont take it off then u can't examine their ears. ppl have a right to refuse examination still in france right?

or has that been removed?

	22-12-2003 04:13									#32
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it was a joke yavoon

	22-12-2003 04:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 But really in the matter of: Muslims want to have their oppresive aspects of their culture entered into French law?

I have heard of demands about separate swimming pools for men and women, and demands that female patients can only be examined by female doctors.

In both cases, it is a strict, clear, and non-compromisable no-no for me

	22-12-2003 04:15									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I have heard of demands about separate swimming pools for men and women, and demands that female patients can only be examined by female doctors. In both cases, it is a strict, clear, and non-compromisable no-no for me

I agree. and none of that hsa to do w/ clothing.

	22-12-2003 04:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I agree. and none of that hsa to do w/ clothing.

What when Schools are asked to "accomodate" their programs (notably in chemics and sports) so that the scarved girls don't have to get rid of the scarf? That's exactly the same.

	22-12-2003 04:18									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What when Schools are asked to "accomodate" their programs (notably in chemics and sports) so that the scarved girls don't have to get rid of the scarf? That's exactly the same.

I agree, they should not be accomodated. but that doesn't mean that it should be banned from everywhere.

	22-12-2003 04:20									#37
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quote: But really in the matter of: Muslims want to have their oppresive aspects of their culture entered into French law?

But that has nothing to do with the headscarf.

quote: What when Schools are asked to "accomodate" their programs (notably in chemics and sports) so that the scarved girls don't have to get rid of the scarf? That's exactly the same.

No it isn't. You just make them take off the scarf for those activities.

Though when I was in high school, the really Muslim women wore their headscarfs DURING gym. They just tucked the other part into their shirts and had no problem at all.

	22-12-2003 04:21									#38
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When a person enter an hospital for care, he/she falls under the responsibility of the doctors of this hospital. If he/she refuses to be examined or to leave their clothes, which in most cases makes the examination impossible, what must the doctor do ? He has no right to reject the malad, and he has not a notary near him to record the situation. Calling the police is not in the spirit of the hospital, and disturbn heavily the normal life of the medics. It seems reasonable to clear the point that any person coming to the hospital should accept its rules. Worth to mention that this point never made problem before, and was raised recently when it reached an excessively disturbing point. Doctors are particularly worried by their responsibility.

	22-12-2003 04:23									#39
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quote: If they refused to be examined or refuse to leave their clothes, which in most cases make the exmination impossible, what the doctor must do ?

And how does this law stop that? What if a woman enters a hospital but refuses to take off her headscarf. This law changes nothing on that.

	22-12-2003 04:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT When a person enter an hospital for care, he/she fall under the esponsibility of the doctors of this hospital. If they refused to be examined or refuse to leave their clothes, which in most cases make the exmination impossible, what the doctor must do ? He has no right to reject the malad, and he has not a notary near him to record the situation. Calling the police is not in the spirit of the hospital, and disturb heavily the normal life of the medics. It seems reasonable to clear the point that any person coming to the hospital should accept its rules. Worth to mention that this point never made problem before, and was raised recemtly when it reached an excessively disturbing point. Doctors are particularly worried by their responsibility.

I would simply have the doctors do what the patient let them do and not more. but certainly if u were really rabid about it u could say if you are unwilling to allow the doctors to work then u must leave the hospital.

as for "recording it" u could simply have them sign some standard document of their refusal of help. its not really that difficult.

	22-12-2003 04:25									#41
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Stupid idea. Free expression and individuality. What next? Ban names of religious origin? Wear a uniform in public? Idiocy, mindless idiocy, coupled with a fear of the unknown .

	22-12-2003 04:25									#42
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I completely agree, all those ppl should be arrested. but I dont agree that u should remove freedoms of other ppl. removing everyone's freedoms is an extreme reaction, done so out of survival instinct of those in power. I don't believe this is the case and that mere vigilance and criminal laws is all that is warranted.

But what does the scarf stand for? Many muslims today say, that the scarf is no longer required to be worn as it reflects outdated laws taken into the Koran. The use of the headscarf has been dramatically on the rise in the last century -either in countries with newly islamistic governments or among communities that supported extreme interpretations of the koran (including oppression of women/taking the law in one's hands/etc.)
this way, the headscarf has also become a political statement that clearly objects the values of our societies: taking these out of schools (haven't seen the hospital proposal either) seems like a not that bad idea to me. If an extreme ideology is mantled into religion -shall we accept their signs in schools?

	22-12-2003 04:25									#43
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You know all this reminded me of that movie with Gerard Departiue (sp)? What was its name? Where he goes to a school with lots of problems?

Mais pour qu'il se prend ce galois? Pour Clint Eastwood?

Poor departiue

	22-12-2003 04:28									#44
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Mazarin: Whatever the reasons for the individual, as far as the society is concerned its still a matter of individual choice. And so what if it does represent a subversive idea (and I question your logic that it does)? We all have to agree with the government? We all have to show or give lip service to the man in charge? I think not.

I would wear whatever I want regardless of such a ban, as an expression of my individuality above all, and as far as the it stands to society, that is what would be attacked.

	22-12-2003 04:28									#45
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where the principal of the school had a nervous breakdown? and all were trying to be nice to him hiding all the problems?

I think there was the question of the head scarve there too BTW, that's how I rememebred it.

	22-12-2003 04:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [ quote: What when Schools are asked to "accomodate" their programs (notably in chemics and sports) so that the scarved girls don't have to get rid of the scarf? That's exactly the same. No it isn't. You just make them take off the scarf for those activities.

Believe me or not (likely not), this question reached the point where we are only because some of the girls refused these reasonnable accomodations.

	22-12-2003 04:30									#47
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Then suspend them from school.

	22-12-2003 04:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I would simply have the doctors do what the patient let them do and not more. but certainly if u were really rabid about it u could say if you are unwilling to allow the doctors to work then u must leave the hospital. as for "recording it" u could simply have them sign some standard document of their refusal of help. its not really that difficult.

We just need one guy like you in every hospital.

	22-12-2003 04:31									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin But what does the scarf stand for? Many muslims today say, that the scarf is no longer required to be worn as it reflects outdated laws taken into the Koran. The use of the headscarf has been dramatically on the rise in the last century -either in countries with newly islamistic governments or among communities that supported extreme interpretations of the koran (including oppression of women/taking the law in one's hands/etc.) this way, the headscarf has also become a political statement that clearly objects the values of our societies: taking these out of schools (haven't seen the hospital proposal either) seems like a not that bad idea to me. If an extreme ideology is mantled into religion -shall we accept their signs in schools?

yes because freedom includes the things u dont like.

or did they not teach u that in france?

	22-12-2003 04:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Then suspend them from school.

Yeah right. And have a generation of uneducated ones. That would solve the problem

	22-12-2003 04:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If they refused to be examined or refuse to leave their clothes, which in most cases make the exmination impossible, what the doctor must do ? And how does this law stop that? What if a woman enters a hospital but refuses to take off her headscarf. This law changes nothing on that.

The law frees the doctors from their previous responsibility, which was far from clear before in the case of uncoperative patients..

	22-12-2003 04:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Yeah right. And have a generation of uneducated ones. That would solve the problem

why is it the gov'ts problem to solve? I still think it is up to the individual and family, and while I dont like seeing ppl miss school because of religion I certainly dont feel like stripping them of their beliefs so that they fit better into society.

	22-12-2003 04:35									#53
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon yes because freedom includes the things u dont like. or did they not teach u that in france?

Schools are not a forum for all kind of ideoligic bullsh!t:
If someone came to school with racist/nazi/whatever stuff on his shirt, he should be sent home.

	22-12-2003 04:36									#54
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quote: The law frees the doctors from their previous responsibility, which was far from clear before in the case of uncoperative patients..

Then why not pass a law saying doctors are not responsible in these cases?

I mean really, if that is the reason, then this law is like cutting off your arm because your thumb hurts.

	22-12-2003 04:38									#55
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon why is it the gov'ts problem to solve? I still think it is up to the individual and family, and while I dont like seeing ppl miss school because of religion I certainly dont feel like stripping them of their beliefs so that they fit better into society.

I agree. However the state has both an obligation and a right to provide educaton to everyone up to 16 years old (I think) completely free and completely obligatory at least here. For example parents who don't send their kids to school (like many of the Gypsie families here unfortunately) face prison. If this is enforced however, it's another matter.
In any case if you have a generation without education you have many more problems but I agree that freedom of expression should be as high as education in values.

I can see the french problem/complications too.

	22-12-2003 04:43									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin Schools are not a forum for all kind of ideoligic bullsh!t: If someone came to school with racist/nazi/whatever stuff on his shirt, he should be sent home.

holy tangential batman.

if he's being disruptive he should be sent home. otherwise freedoms are freedoms.

	22-12-2003 04:45									#57
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I agree. However the state has both an obligation and a right to provide educaton to everyone up to 16 years old (I think) completely free and completely obligatory at least here. For example parents who don't send their kids to school (like many of the Gypsie families here unfortunately) face prison. If this is enforced however, it's another matter. In any case if you have a generation without education you have many more problems but I agree that freedom of expression should be as high as education in values. I can see the french problem/complications too.

I am more willing to compromise on freedoms when it comes to the treatment of children for sure. even though this is tangential I do see this as an area for compromise.

but I hardly see how banning clothing in school lends itself to this.

	22-12-2003 04:46									#58
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Yes, a patient can refuse part of an examination. There is no need for some new law. The doctor simply has to record in the chart that he offered the exam and explained the consequences of not having the exam performed despite which the patient refused. If you're really testy you can have the patient sign or initial a statement.

I've dealt with scarfed muslim women, it wasn't a big problem. If they have a complaint regarding their ears or scalp they simply lift the scarf for awhile. There are plenty of women who are uncomfortable about having a man do their Gyn exam. I've never had a problem with referring those women to a female physician. It's a simple matter of common decency.

I wonder if these rules affect giving last unction?

Are you certyain that expressions of atheisism are also banned? Someone should give that a test.

	22-12-2003 04:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon holy tangential batman. if he's being disruptive he should be sent home. otherwise freedoms are freedoms.

then we should agree to disagree...one could consider extremist symbols as disruptive, of course

	22-12-2003 04:51									#60
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon but I hardly see how banning clothing in school lends itself to this.

Me too. I suppose it has become symbolism for something. I also find the french position strange. However I have heard how "militant" french muslims can be. But I tsill can't see the use of banning headscarves. It must have to do with liberte egalite fraternite - all equal under the state. But still doesn't justify it IMHO. But we don't know how it's like. Many muslims are in favor of the ban too. But it does seem strange. I wonder what happens to Greek schools I've never heard of problems of that kind even though I've seen some women in the street with the head scarve but not their daughters.