23-12-2003 00:43									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I love how Europeans, when questioned about a policy they have, always run and cry "BUT THE USA DOES X!" Shows EUropeans unable to discuss their problems or handle criticisms of them. Looks bad for Europe if all they can do when confronted with a problem is spout some hyperbole about the US.

	23-12-2003 00:49									#122
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus and please note that in a Muslim nation such as Turkey, similar bans are in place.

Ive never cited Turkey as an example of western liberal tolerance (though its still a democracy, of course). Its an aggressively secularist regime, that has taken illiberal actions against Islam. With the result that there is a growing Islamist movement in Turkey.

	23-12-2003 00:52									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: You mean, if France did what the US is doing in Guantanomo? Troll. we now resume our regular programming.

Ah, let them troll. With Saddam caught, hundreds of Fedayeen caught or killed in Iraq, and with Libya giving up WMD's they've had a bad week. I can understand the grouchiness.

	23-12-2003 00:52									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Troll.

Yup

quote: I love how Europeans, when questioned about a policy they have, always run and cry "BUT THE USA DOES X!" Shows EUropeans unable to discuss their problems or handle criticisms of them. Looks bad for Europe if all they can do when confronted with a problem is spout some hyperbole about the US.

change it around and it still applies.

They are PUBLIC schools, paid for by public money, and if the governement elected by the public, supported by the public, calls for a ban on all (not just Muslim) overt religious symbols in PUBLIC schools, then it is their every right to do so. It's a democracy, after all.

	23-12-2003 00:58									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Ah, let them troll. With Saddam caught, hundreds of Fedayeen caught or killed in Iraq, and with Libya giving up WMD's they've had a bad week. I can understand the grouchiness.

ah well, we had our fun. And knowing you guys, it won't take long before something else goes horribly wrong. Enjoy this while it lasts.

	23-12-2003 01:00									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Yup change it around and it still applies. They are PUBLIC schools, paid for by public money, and if the governement elected by the public, supported by the public, calls for a ban on all (not just Muslim) overt religious symbols in PUBLIC schools, then it is their every right to do so. It's a democracy, after all.

Its certainly their right to do it - i hope i have not led anyone to believe I think its not their right to do it. But it may not be good public policy, and it certainly isnt a liberal tolerant approach, and it does call into question France's claiming of a moral highground to criticize internal policies of the United States.

	23-12-2003 01:11									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus ah well, we had our fun. And knowing you guys, it won't take long before something else goes horribly wrong. Enjoy this while it lasts.

Oh theres certain to be bad weeks, and few as good as this one - to which I might add the French-German surrender -oops I meant compromise - on Iraqi debts.

Now joined by Russia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3341221.stm

	23-12-2003 01:25									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

personally, I was all for giving up on the debts. Not just for Iraq though, but for most Third World nations.

	23-12-2003 01:37									#129
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: the United States is the only Industrialized nation to have school prayer in public schools

School prayer is strictly forbidden in public schools according to the SCOTUS.

As for cutting out extremism. Isn't there the doctrine of innocent until proven guilty. Yes, these families may have values that go against Constitutional rights, but don't they have the right to protest those 'rights'? Unless they do something against the Constitution, how can you punish them?

Like said above, this is just sweeping things under the rug.

	23-12-2003 02:06									#130
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I fail to see where the hypocrisy is; we dont like extremist beliefs to the point that we make a law limiting their expression in a limited number of circumstances. I hope that an hypocrit attempt would not have provoked so many reactions. We possibly are wrong, but in this case not hypocrit.

Trying to prevent people from believing what you don't like (in this case, "extremist" beliefs) is pure hypocrisy. Why can't they prevent people from believing what they don't like?

	23-12-2003 02:07									#131
	Got spare money?

because they're wrong and we're right. duh.

	23-12-2003 02:13									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Wearing the skullcap/headscarf are both nessecary actions that are required by their respective faiths

Now that many Jewish students have suffered physical or verbal agressions in France, it has suddenly become religiously OK to wear anything on your head according to the French Jewish school directors, skullcaps merely covering the minimal required surface.

BTW, I'd like you to quote the Coran on the religious obligation to wear a scarf. I'm listening.

	23-12-2003 02:19									#133
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Now that many Jewish students have suffered physical or verbal agressions in France, it has suddenly become religiously OK to wear anything on your head according to the French Jewish school directors, skullcaps merely covering the minimal required surface. BTW, I'd like you to quote the Coran on the religious obligation to wear a scarf. I'm listening.

Its always been okay under jewish law to wear anything your head, as long as the minimum area is covered. (for some ultraOrthodox Jews customs to wear more specific headcoverings have almost the force of law, but i doubt any of them attend French public schools anyway) I guess theres some confusion about how the law applies to Jewish headcoverings. Will Jewish males be allowed to wear say baseball caps in French schools??? Will Islamic girls be allowed to completelty cover their hair, as long as they dont use specifically Islamic fashions to do it?

	23-12-2003 02:25									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Actually, I am not aware of any jewish commandment requiring to wear a skullcap ( kipa sounds much better, btw. )

	23-12-2003 02:32									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Will Jewish males be allowed to wear say baseball caps in French schools??? Will Islamic girls be allowed to completelty cover their hair, as long as they dont use specifically Islamic fashions to do it?

Although this is unlikely, this will most probably depend on the teacher.
In general, teachers like to have uncovered students in front of them, but they can individually decide to tolerate it from religious people, rather than ratting them out or force them to uncover.

Unlike blatant religious fashions, "ordinary" head-covering fascions can only be a problem in the classroom, as it cannot be detected in recess yard. Hence, the treatment of it will widely vary accordiing to the teachers.

I think there is no law against head covers, but there is likely to be a rule in internal reglementations.

	23-12-2003 02:34									#136
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Actually, I am not aware of any jewish commandment requiring to wear a skullcap ( kipa sounds much better, btw. )

IIRC there is a requirement to cover the head during prayer that goes back at least to Gaonic times (Circa 800 CE) though i dont have cite handy. at the time covering the head was standard practice for males both in Islam and the West (wear hoods were preferred) the hood going out of fashion in favor of bareheadedness created a dilemma for Jewish males, who adopted the kippa as a compromise. ISTR that at least one medieval scholar said that this was absurd, there was no halachic basis for accepting the kippa as a substitute for a more complete head covering. The kippa was adopted anyway, and the rabbinate followed the people. (This is cited by Conservative Jews for the notion that the people - klal Israel - have the right to lead the rabbinate on halachic questions)

	23-12-2003 02:37									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think there is no law against head covers, but there is likely to be a rule in internal reglementations.

thanks for the info

a friendly correction - In english we would say regulations. In this case English follows the Latin rather than the Norman French I think. (of course to follow the Anglo-saxon it would simply be rule making)

	23-12-2003 02:40									#138
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark a friendly correction - In english we would say regulations. In this case English follows the Latin rather than the Norman French I think. (of course to follow the Anglo-saxon it would simply be rule making)

Thanks for the correction. I'm tired tonight, so my English is worse than usual, but everything should come back to normal when I come back from Christmas

	23-12-2003 02:42									#139
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus It's a democracy, after all.

It sounds like the majority trampling on the rights of the minority.

	23-12-2003 02:44									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus personally, I was all for giving up on the debts. Not just for Iraq though, but for most Third World nations.

Saint Marcus, I would not be in favor of debt relief for the Third World unless they implement both capitalism and democracy. Otherwise I would prefer keeping the debt in place.

	23-12-2003 02:48									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Thanks for the correction. I'm tired tonight, so my English is worse than usual, but everything should come back to normal when I come back from Christmas

nah we just have too crazy a language - too many occasions where we have a latin derived AND a Norman French derived AND an Anglo-Saxon derived word for the same thing. A great resource for writers but a torture for non-natives learning the language, I guess.

In this case our REGULATORS have to follow RULE MAKING processes. Their rules go into the Code of Federal REGULATIONS. Just as our LEGISLATORS have to make LAWS. The LEGISLATION thus passed becomes public LAW.

	23-12-2003 03:17									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Oh theres certain to be bad weeks, and few as good as this one - to which I might add the French-German surrender -oops I meant compromise - on Iraqi debts. Now joined by Russia

I am happy that the US are satisfied with the three fast-obtained non quantified *commitments*. As previously anticipated on this forum, they are all subjets to the procedures and decision process of the Paris Club.

Any bet on the outcome ?

	23-12-2003 03:25									#143
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I am happy that the US are satisfied with the three fast-obtained non quantified *commitments*. As previously anticipated on this forum, they are all subjets to the procedures and decision process of the Paris Club. Any bet on the outcome ?

Incorrect, Russia said 65% and seems to be moving ahead without the Paris club. Your comments apply only to France and Germany, and even in those cases they went farther than they have before. It wouldnt have made a great back by itself, I agree, but combined with the other things it was as we say, "icing on the cake"

	23-12-2003 03:37									#144
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Incorrect, Russia said 65% and seems to be moving ahead without the Paris club. Your comments apply only to France and Germany, and even in those cases they went farther than they have before. It wouldnt have made a great back by itself, I agree, but combined with the other things it was as we say, "icing on the cake"

Quite contradictory with your source :

quote: It is understood that Russia's offer to reduce the debt must first be approved by the Paris Club, an informal group of creditors that co-ordinates debt repayment.

	23-12-2003 03:43									#145
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"Once, as I was going to the inner city, I suddenly encountered an apparition in a black caftan and black hair locks. It is a Jew? was my first thought.

For, to be sure, they had not looked like that in Linz. I observed the man furtively and cautiously, but the longer I stared at this foreign face, scrutinizing feature for feature, the more my first questions assumed a new form:

Is this a German?"

Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf," Houghton Mifflin Company, 1971 at 56.

	23-12-2003 05:38									#146
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor . As a matter of fact, priests who pledged to the Revolution were civil servants, they were paid by the State.

They also weren't really priests, as they were required to only teach the state religion, which was a hastily concocted hodge-podge of deisitic mumbo-jumbo.

Would it be OK to register Frenchmen, just so long as they only spoke English and regugitated the American Republican party line on all things political?

How about it if we register you as a born-again Baptist?

	23-12-2003 05:39									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Would it be OK to sport a T-shirt that said "You shall not murder?"

	23-12-2003 10:27									#148
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Yup change it around and it still applies. They are PUBLIC schools, paid for by public money, and if the governement elected by the public, supported by the public, calls for a ban on all (not just Muslim) overt religious symbols in PUBLIC schools, then it is their every right to do so. It's a democracy, after all.

did u even believe this when u wrote it?

bill of rights? tyranny of majority? 51% of the population to take 100% of the ppl's taxes and do w/ as they like?

basic freedoms?

	23-12-2003 12:55									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Wearing the skullcap/headscarf are both nessecary actions that are required by their respective faiths, and pose no direct harm to other people. Nor does wearing a skullcap by itself proselytize.

That's why I proposed a different wording of the law. Wearing scarves or kippas doesn't hurt most of the time, except in certain classes like sports or chemistry. Wearing face covering hurts in all cases.

For those who comment about Iraq and bash France for its refusal of interverntion, let me remind you that the U.S. called for war in order to find out WoMD, a search which was far from successful, and that the French president said that, if the reason invoked had been to get rid of a dictator, the French reaction could have been different. The government might have acted the same, but the population would certainly had felt better on a war to get rid of a tyrant rather than a war to take the oil, errr... find inexistant weapons.

	23-12-2003 22:47									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare That's why I proposed a different wording of the law. Wearing scarves or kippas doesn't hurt most of the time, except in certain classes like sports or chemistry. Wearing face covering hurts in all cases. For those who comment about Iraq and bash France for its refusal of interverntion, let me remind you that the U.S. called for war in order to find out WoMD, a search which was far from successful, and that the French president said that, if the reason invoked had been to get rid of a dictator, the French reaction could have been different. The government might have acted the same, but the population would certainly had felt better on a war to get rid of a tyrant rather than a war to take the oil, errr... find inexistant weapons.

But, all this shows is that Bush acted primarily to defend the US (and France), not to liberate Iraq. Had the US, or the world for that matter, been TRULY concerned over the plight of the Iraqi people, it would have acted in '91 when it had the opportunity.