22-12-2003 13:04									#91
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Does freedom of religion apply to polygamy ?

	22-12-2003 14:01									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, before the last election, Chirac was President, but the Socialists under Jospin and Raffarin were in charge of the legislature. The last election saw the Gaullist parties take control.

Raffarin is Chirac's servant. He's belonged to the right-wing during his whole political carreer, and he's the incarnation of the established non-Parisian bourgeoisie.

	22-12-2003 14:20									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove IIRC the Great Terror was supposed to have taken somewhere around one half million lives.

Yes, and quite a few priests have died in the Terror. But it is hard to tell if these many people are victims of the political assassinations of the Terror alone, or if there are also the victims of the civil war (between the Vendée and the Republican forces) and of the international war included.

However, these massacres have more to do with the climate of general histeria at the time than a fundamental dislike of French people for religion. As a matter of fact, priests who pledged to the Revolution were civil servants, they were paid by the State.

	22-12-2003 14:28									#94
	Re: Re: France bans religious symbols in schools and hospitals. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler So let me get this straight . . small religious symbols--which are worn by Christians--are okay. But headgear like headscarves and skullcaps--neither of which are worn by Christians--are banned. Hmm, I wonder what the message is here.

Christians are forbidden to wear obviously seeable religious symbols in public schools exactly the same way as Muslims, Jews, or Buddhists, or whatever... There is no religious obligation by the Christians to wear obvious signs, so more power to them. But it means a kid does not have the right to come at school with a "Jesus rules" T-shirt, nor is he allowed to wear a large cross as a pendant like the Sisters are wearing.

Besides, small symbols of whatever religion are allowed. Discrete pendants of David's Star, of the moon crescent, or of the cross, are allowed.

	22-12-2003 14:41									#95
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What a kid went to school with anti-religious symbols, such as, a T-shirt with the words, "Jesus Sucks."

	22-12-2003 15:06									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin well...if I see that something obviously goes extremely wrong (like the mentioned uprise of islamism in western Europe), then yes, I really think something has to be done. Simply ignoring the problem and putting the most obvious crimes to court (the greatest part -like violence at home remains hidden in most cases) is not enough for me. If freedom of religion implies letting children grow in an athmosphere where they are indoctrinated to disregard the most essential values of the society they live in -I'm willing to watch at my concept of religious freedom and expand it to "freedom to chose ones religion". It is not an easy question, but you sometimes need to have a closer look when one fundamental right is hurting another (to take one extreme example: If a religion implies cannibalistic rituals -am I going to do something against it or am I going to wait until the rituals have been performed and judge the participants according to laws). Freedoms of one person can be limiting the freedoms of others: giving up the freedom of wearing religious signs at school seems like a good deal when spreading freedom of choice, equality and free thought. in my book, at least.

the free choice to not wear religious clothes. the free thot to not think about ppl wearing religious clothes and the equality that everyone's freedoms are infringed at an equal level!

france is truly a great bastion of freedom.

	22-12-2003 15:23									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Not that one thing has anything to do with another, but the United States is the only Industrialized nation to have school prayer in public schools

No you're not.

Pater imon, o en tis ouranis,
agiasthito to onoma sou,
eltheto i vasilia sou,
gennithito to thelima sou,
os en ourano kai epi tis gis.
Ton arton imon ton epiousion
dos imin simeron
kai afes imin ta ofilimata imon,
os kai imis afieme tis ofiletis imon,
kai mi isenegis imas is pirasmon,
alla risse imas apo tou ponirou.
Amin.


*cross* (yawn) *cross* (yawn) *cross*

Ok pupils, to your classes in good order

	22-12-2003 16:10									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What a kid went to school with anti-religious symbols, such as, a T-shirt with the words, "Jesus Sucks."

It is banned as well.

	22-12-2003 16:11									#99
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In the UK there is supposed to be an act of worship every morning I believe it is not enforced. Although church schools will do it anyway.

Then again our fabulous system has the head of state also head of their own religion with the head of govt making decsions on who should be the top clergyman.

	22-12-2003 20:48									#100
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I said the Lord's Prayer every weeks until I was eleven, and I went to a state school. Who gives a stuff..

	22-12-2003 21:08									#101
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It seems the position of (at least some of) those France-supporters here is "they could grow up having beliefs we don't like extremist beliefs, so we have to ban symbols of those beliefs"

Does anyone else see the blatant hypocrisy there?

	22-12-2003 21:23									#102
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Absolutley and totally disgusting. Now, if you are religious Jew or Moslem, you cannot practice your faith and attend normal schools, schools which your community is paying taxes towards. France has forgotten the first part of "Liberte, Fraternite, Egalite" and cannot anymore be considered a tolerant country.

	22-12-2003 21:29									#103
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I fail to see where the hypocrisy is; we dont like extremist beliefs to the point that we make a law limiting their expression in a limited number of circumstances. I hope that an hypocrit attempt would not have provoked so many reactions. We possibly are wrong, but in this case not hypocrit.

	22-12-2003 22:49									#104
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I just want to point out that the law is not (yet?) voted.

I think one of the big cultural differences between France and other countries is that we tend to view religion as a private matter, and as such, any outward sign of religion is seen as proselytism.
I think that the law should state that religious symbols which hinder either education or treatment should be removed, respectively at school and at hospital.
This would force people to remove scarves to go swimming, which is sensible, and swimming can save one's life, yours or someone else's, so it must be taught. Same goes for hospital. The point is that if a patient refuses to be healed for religious reasons, the responsibility is his instead of the doctor's, as Spiffor already explained.

	22-12-2003 23:03									#105
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I just want to point out that the law is not (yet?) voted. I think one of the big cultural differences between France and other countries is that we tend to view religion as a private matter, and as such, any outward sign of religion is seen as proselytism.

A view of religion that doesnt make sense for traditional Islam or Judaism. Which are by their nature social religions.

But, ok, its your culture I suppose.


One of the big cultural difference between the US and Europe is that we view murderers as forfeiting their right to life, and we see the death penalty as a legitimate tool of the state. Now can you guys respect our culture?

	22-12-2003 23:10									#106
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I didn't know they planned to kill the muslims

	22-12-2003 23:11									#107
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quote: Simply ignoring the problem

This is precisely what the ban does! The problem is a fundamental lack of understanding between the Muslim minority and the rest of the French people, and, therefore, you need to do something to promote understanding, rather than simply sweeping the issues under the rug and pissing a whole bunch of people off with a superficial "solution".

	22-12-2003 23:38									#108
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Many others have pointed out that if you require uniforms, you can eliminate all sorts of "displays" in a "neutral" manner. To many here, this is anti-religion and in particular, anti-Muslim. I am sure this will not help France's relations with Muslim countries.

Also, it does undermine US foreign policy because we advocate freedom of religion as an essential freedom. We do so, because we believe it is.

	23-12-2003 00:17									#109
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::reminds Ned that France has better relations with Muslim nations than the US does::

Who's the Great Satan again?

	23-12-2003 00:19									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus ::reminds Ned that France has better relations with Muslim nations than the US does:: Who's the Great Satan again?

Er, not better relations with Iraqis, for example.

	23-12-2003 00:22									#111
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The Iraqis? They're busy killing American GIs, protesting the American occupation in Mosques, and so forth. And I still don't see Imams calling for a Jihad against France. Not even in Iraq (where Imams do call for a Jihad against the US).

	23-12-2003 00:26									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The Iraqis? They're busy killing American GIs, protesting the American occupation in Mosques, and so forth. And I still don't see Imams calling for a Jihad against France. Not even in Iraq (where Imams do call for a Jihad against the US).

The majority of Iraqis support the American presence. The Clerics who support the American presence are generally Shiites, and are called Ayatollahs. They dont call for Jihad against France, cause theyre not the kinds of clerics who call for jihad. Evidently you only see militant jihadi clerics as genuinely muslim, eh?

	23-12-2003 00:28									#113
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St. Marcus, Currently. But, what about the day after the ban goes into place?

But, I agree, even if France began to put Muslims in concentration camps they would not be as unpopular among the Muslim fanatics because it has no power.

	23-12-2003 00:28									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus ::reminds Ned that France has better relations with Muslim nations than the US does:: Who's the Great Satan again?

France largely has better relations with Muslim STATES, in particular the secular ones, like Algeria for example. Even there support for Saddam can be seen in that context. Of course the hate filled Jihadis focus on the US, but I dont consider them representative of Islam.

	23-12-2003 00:31									#115
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I just want to point out that the law is not (yet?) voted. I think one of the big cultural differences between France and other countries is that we tend to view religion as a private matter, and as such, any outward sign of religion is seen as proselytism. I think that the law should state that religious symbols which hinder either education or treatment should be removed, respectively at school and at hospital. This would force people to remove scarves to go swimming, which is sensible, and swimming can save one's life, yours or someone else's, so it must be taught. Same goes for hospital. The point is that if a patient refuses to be healed for religious reasons, the responsibility is his instead of the doctor's, as Spiffor already explained.

Wearing the skullcap/headscarf are both nessecary actions that are required by their respective faiths, and pose no direct harm to other people. Nor does wearing a skullcap by itself proselytize.

	23-12-2003 00:34									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The Iraqis? They're busy killing American GIs, protesting the American occupation in Mosques, and so forth. And I still don't see Imams calling for a Jihad against France. Not even in Iraq (where Imams do call for a Jihad against the US).

'"The U.N. must not fail the Iraqi people again," Zebari said. "So we ask you today, please put aside your differences, pull together and work with us and all those who have contributed and sacrificed so much to realize our shared objective of a sovereign, united and democratic Iraq."


The Iraqi minister said afterwards that "we were critical of not only the U.N. but many other nations ... for doing nothing to help us overcome those years of dictatorship and tyranny and utlmost brutality." '

	23-12-2003 00:37									#117
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Great decision. I wish we could have this around here, as well.

	23-12-2003 00:41									#118
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quote: Of course the hate filled Jihadis focus on the US, but I dont consider them representative of Islam.

Polls held by Pew and Gallup from 2001-03, among others, all showed that the majority of the Muslims in the world think unfavorably of America. Even in "allied" muslim nations.

Now please some evidence that the general muslim populace thinks even WORSE about France, than about the US. No polls have shown this. No French flags burned. No jihads called against France. And not just the extremists are anti-American, the MAJORITY of the Muslims is anti-American.

quote: But, I agree, even if France began to put Muslims in concentration camps they would not be as unpopular among the Muslim fanatics because it has no power.

You mean, if France did what the US is doing in Guantanomo?

	23-12-2003 00:42									#119
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and please note that in a Muslim nation such as Turkey, similar bans are in place.

	23-12-2003 00:43									#120
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quote: You mean, if France did what the US is doing in Guantanomo?

Troll.


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