22-12-2003 02:05									#1
	France bans religious symbols in schools and hospitals. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

France is banning religious symbols in schools and hospitals.

These include muslim headscarves, jewish skullcaps and christian crosses. People are forbidden from wearing them in certain public buildings.

Small crosses and stars of david, are accepted however. As long as they're small and not too obvious.

Oddly enough, French muslim organisations urged their community to follow the new regulations.

	22-12-2003 02:19									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The last gasp of the venerable and monumentally misguided France Unie et Indivisible policy, one would hope. They won't be able to withstand the tide of the muticultural society much longer.

To be frank, this ban is pretty much as close as you can come to a policy that opposes all of my most heartfelt viewpoints, except possibly the feminist one. Undemocratic, disciplinarian, one-nation monocultural, petty conservatism.

	22-12-2003 02:20									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

it's not so bad- for them of course. I wouldn't agree with it for the U.S. But Europe is different than the U.S.

	22-12-2003 02:24									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The only policy from which we could learn something from France; to aid integration.

	22-12-2003 02:27									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: The last gasp of the venerable and monumentally misguided France Unie et Indivisible policy, one would hope. They won't be able to withstand the tide of the muticultural society much longer. To be frank, this ban is pretty much as close as you can come to a policy that opposes all of my most heartfelt viewpoints, except possibly the feminist one. Undemocratic, disciplinarian, one-nation monocultural, petty conservatism.

I agree... though it is amusing to hear of a conservative policy which wants to ban all religious expression .

	22-12-2003 02:33									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I personally think this goes too far. While I think schools and government hospitals should be secular, I don't think the government has the right to ban religious wear, unless they are enforcing a standard uniform code.

But, I also don't get this outrage that the right has towards France over this. You can still go to church or the mosque or whatever and pray. You can silently pray to yourself. Plus, I don't think God cares what people wear, or whether or not people are wearing skullcaps or headscarves.

	22-12-2003 03:14									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

what if u insisted the skullcap was non religious and that u liked it as fashion?

its obviously a huge load of crap. the whole concept of "integration" is wrong.

sufficed to say france has befcome religious. its religion is aetheism. and its being ENFORCED.

	22-12-2003 03:19									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: the whole concept of "integration" is wrong.

Yeah, we need completely polarised communities..

	22-12-2003 03:19									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: I agree... though it is amusing to hear of a conservative policy which wants to ban all religious expression

French conservatives and republicans are by nature anti-religious. Secular Republic vs Religious Monarchy. From those days this all comes from, and instead of it being used to curtain the influence of the Catholics, it's now used to curtail the influence of the Muslims.

However, this being said...papers here label it a "liberal" move. (then again, liberals here are right wingers too)

	22-12-2003 03:20									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Yeah, we need completely polarised communities..

no, u need freedoms. the gov't isnt a nanny.

	22-12-2003 03:21									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Frankly, it's uncomprehensible.

	22-12-2003 03:36									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

is this only for organized religion or does this extend to any belief system? like if I believe in personal power by that tony guy w/ the huge teeth and I wear a shirt professing my belief in his philosophy.

is that banned?

	22-12-2003 03:40									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

While I think the move was quite extreme at school, I strongly agree with the hospital part. When Muslim women (but you could say submitted women, which would be more accurate) have to wear scarves during a consultation, when the husband is the one who talks as her wife gets examinated even by a gynecologist, when Muslim groups demand that there are men-only and women-only areas etc...

I think it is a time to say "stop". There's a time where we cannot agree with such displays of "religiosity" as they go so against our values of liberty, equality and fraternity. The ban in hospoitals is completely about the submission of women to their husband. I'm very, very glad we oppose it without any concession.

Saint Marcus:
You'd be interested by this thread, where we discussed the issue at length, although it was no poll.
You may find information that you don't know as of yet.

	22-12-2003 03:42									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

How many muslims are there in France?

	22-12-2003 03:44									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by yavoon sufficed to say france has befcome religious. its religion is aetheism. and its being ENFORCED.

Probably.
You know what? If a teacher professes atheist beliefs, or if a pupil wears an "ostensible" sign stating his atheism, he'd fall to the law exactly as a teacher explaining the superiority of Jesus, or a Scarved girl.

Religion is supposed to be silenced at school according to the French value of laïcité. Not denied.

	22-12-2003 03:44									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor While I think the move was quite extreme at school, I strongly agree with the hospital part. When Muslim women (but you could say submitted women, which would be more accurate) have to wear scarves during a consultation, when the husband is the one who talks as her wife gets examinated even by a gynecologist, when Muslim groups demand that there are men-only and women-only areas etc... I think it is a time to say "stop". There's a time where we cannot agree with such displays of "religiosity" as they go so against our values of liberty, equality and fraternity. The ban in hospoitals is completely about the submission of women to their husband. I'm very, very glad we oppose it without any concession. Saint Marcus: You'd be interested by this thread, where we discussed the issue at length, although it was no poll. You may find information that you don't know as of yet.

why not kick the guy out during a gynecologist consultation. there's no need to BAN CLOTHING to achieve any of the aims u mentioned.

	22-12-2003 03:45									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Probably. You know what? If a teacher professes atheist beliefs, or if a pupil wears an "ostensible" sign stating his atheism, he'd fall to the law exactly as a teacher explaining the superiority of Jesus, or a Scarved girl. Religion is supposed to be silenced at school according to the French value of laïcité. Not denied.

can I wear a tony robbins t shirt?

I thot of his last name

	22-12-2003 03:46									#18
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 How many muslims are there in France?

Supposedly about 5 millions on a pop of 60 mil.
I'd like to point out that many Muslims are non-observants, njust like many catholics are. The number of veiled girls at school is very small (something like 1000 a year), and this would be a non-issue if the French were not so easy to tickle with the whole issue of religion at school.

	22-12-2003 03:49									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yavoon why not kick the guy out during a gynecologist consultation. there's no need to BAN CLOTHING to achieve any of the aims u mentioned.

Because clothing is one aspect in a more general problem. Besides, I never heard that hospital patients would be banned of wearing scarves. I heard however that hospital patients would have to accept the hospital's conditions whenever they are opposite to their religious teachings.
This comes from the pressure of the newly formed oragnization of French Muslims, who strongly intends to have Muslim practices enter the law. I heard of the specific clothing issues only when it comes to school.

	22-12-2003 03:52									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Because clothing is one aspect in a more general problem. Besides, I never heard that hospital patients would be banned of wearing scarves. I heard however that hospital patients would have to accept the hospital's conditions whenever they are opposite to their religious teachings. This comes from the pressure of the newly formed oragnization of French Muslims, who strongly intends to have Muslim practices enter the law. I heard of the specific clothing issues only when it comes to school.

yah but I dont think the general problem is the gynecologist. I think its that france dislikes islam and it feels threataned by the muslim community.

as I said before, none of ur complaints require clothing to be banned to address them.

	22-12-2003 03:55									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And are those 5 million French citizens?

	22-12-2003 03:57									#22
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by yavoon I think its that france dislikes islam and it feels threataned by the muslim community.

France has gotten along with Islam quite fine until recent years, and most opposition to Arabs was racist rather than anti-religious.

The fact that the muslim community organized itself, and now demands that some of the old 'Muslim' oppression to women makes it to law, as a token of 'tolerance' for their belief is what is wrong. We have struggled for decades to get out of the grasp of the Catholic Church, that's not to enter the clutches of Muslim obscurantists.

	22-12-2003 04:00									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor France has gotten along with Islam quite fine until recent years, and most opposition to Arabs was racist rather than anti-religious. The fact that the muslim community organized itself, and now demands that some of the old 'Muslim' oppression to women makes it to law, as a token of 'tolerance' for their belief is what is wrong. We have struggled for decades to get out of the grasp of the Catholic Church, that's not to enter the clutches of Muslim obscurantists.

so this is all political backlash at islam becoming organized? interestyng. while that is certainly believable. fundamentalism islam is a deplorable set of beliefs. I would say then that u r being practical and trying to suppress their religion and not idealogical.

	22-12-2003 04:01									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 And are those 5 million French citizens?

A great many of them. I'd like to point out that many Muslim French citizens have been born in France, but haven't been integrated properly.

For a long time, counter-culture (which was much more concerned with worldly issues than spiritual ones) and crime was the treand for those alienated people. But since latest years, there seems to be a fashion of Muslim zaelotry. I wouldn't be surprised if the Wahhabists have profited from the dismayed situation of many young 'Muslim' people in France.

	22-12-2003 04:03									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor France has gotten along with Islam quite fine until recent years, and most opposition to Arabs was racist rather than anti-religious. The fact that the muslim community organized itself, and now demands that some of the old 'Muslim' oppression to women makes it to law, as a token of 'tolerance' for their belief is what is wrong. We have struggled for decades to get out of the grasp of the Catholic Church, that's not to enter the clutches of Muslim obscurantists.

Concurred.

	22-12-2003 04:03									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by yavoon yah but I dont think the general problem is the gynecologist. I think its that france dislikes islam and it feels threataned by the muslim community. as I said before, none of ur complaints require clothing to be banned to address them.

They surely feel threatened by the extremists who submiss women, who beat up muslim girls that are not clothed "approprietly", who beat up doctors because they "touched" "their" women. No free society can accept this.

	22-12-2003 04:05									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by yavoon so this is all political backlash at islam becoming organized? interestyng.

Islam became organized only recently (2 years ago or so), as the right-wing government tried to build a one discussing partner for Islam, similar to the representative institutions of the Christians and Jews.

But it wasn't planned that the traditionnalists would get so much weigh in it. And ever since this institution opened its mouth, it was reclaiming the application of some Muslim obscurantist dogma in the law.

If you're interested in petty politics, you may be interested by the fact that the moderate leader of Paris' mosque became leader of the Institution, despite his list having lost the election by a clear margin.

	22-12-2003 04:05									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Mazarin They surely feel threatened by the extremists who submiss women, who beat up muslim girls that are not clothed "approprietly", who beat up doctors because they "touched" "their" women. No free society can accept this.

I completely agree, all those ppl should be arrested.

but I dont agree that u should remove freedoms of other ppl. removing everyone's freedoms is an extreme reaction, done so out of survival instinct of those in power. I don't believe this is the case and that mere vigilance and criminal laws is all that is warranted.

	22-12-2003 04:08									#29
	Remove this text

quote: I strongly agree with the hospital part. When Muslim women (but you could say submitted women, which would be more accurate) have to wear scarves during a consultation

How is allowing the woman to wear the scarf hinder examinations?

	22-12-2003 04:10									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

They can't see their ears.



But really in the matter of: Muslims want to have their oppresive aspects of their culture entered into French law?

No way hose.