22-12-2003 04:53									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I mean really, if that is the reason, then this law is like cutting off your arm because your thumb hurts.

I would be happy that we overestimate the threat of the extreme islamism, but I prefer that we consider it seriously, and not let it grow comfortably in our really benevolent and comfortable society. We overdo the job? I would think that you know better.

	22-12-2003 04:59									#62
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quote: I would be happy that we overestimate the threat of the extreme islamism, but I prefer that we consider it seriously, and not let it grow comfortably in our really benevolent and comfortable society. We overdo the job? I would think that you know better.

Yes, you overdo it. Not ALL Muslims are terrorists. Jeez, I thought we had that discussion a while back.

	22-12-2003 05:02									#63
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and if they were terrorists, why would they bomb France?

	22-12-2003 06:09									#64
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I voted somewhat agree. I think the seperate of state and religion is good, and should be enforced, but I think the banning of clothing is somewhat too far.

	22-12-2003 06:17									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Idiocy, mindless idiocy, coupled with a fear of the unknown .

We know religion pretty well. Unlike you Brits, we didn't invent a non-papist religion to escape the clutches of the Catholic Church, and the memory of what it did to us is vivid. You may tell we fear religion, but we certainly not fear the unknown.

	22-12-2003 06:23									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Are you certyain that expressions of atheisism are also banned? Someone should give that a test.

At school, yes, it is formally banned. Now, as per the other bans, it depends on the school director's decision to act upon the blatant atheist/christian/muslim/jew or not.
Actually, such situations have been rare, and even more rarely were they conflictual.

If the directors are told to be more strict in dealing with their religious, we can expect them to crack down on blatant atheists more often. Now, there are only a few blatant atheists in France, because there is much less need to show one's atheism than in a religious society such as the US.

	22-12-2003 06:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I voted somewhat agree. I think the seperate of state and religion is good, and should be enforced, but I think the banning of clothing is somewhat too far.

I voted somewhat agree as well, because I think the outright ban will end up being contraproductive.

After putting some thought with what I learned last year on 'Poly, I've seen that the Americans had a very unhealthy debate on some issues like abortion or gun control, because the past decisions had been taken without compromise and have been enshrined since.
I think the debate on the role of religion in France is quite similar to the unhealthy American debates. It is still licking the wounds of the painful process of separation of Church and State undergone by the 3rd Republic.

I think we need more conciliation, and the line drawn in the law is too strict. It'll end up alienating more people than helping people. And if we want to integrate our Muslims, and to associate them with the Republic more efficiently, we should try not to radicalize them in a confrontative climate.

However, don't get me wrong. My toning down has only to do with the practical concern of integrating people better. I loathe the scarf and all it represents, and I can only hope for the day when the girls won't have to wear it anymore.

	22-12-2003 06:38									#68
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quote: I've seen that the Americans had a very unhealthy debate on some issues like abortion or gun control, because the past decisions had been taken without compromise and have been enshrined since.

That's a very insightful view at things. When you take things away from the democratic process, things get heated.

quote: I loathe the scarf and all it represents, and I can only hope for the day when the girls won't have to wear it anymore.

Most Muslim women, when they wear the scarf, are not being repressed. This is part of the problem I think. They wear the scarf, while Muslim men wear skull caps.

	22-12-2003 07:24									#69
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quote: while Muslim men wear skull caps.

::has yet to see a Muslim guy wear a skull cap in school::

	22-12-2003 07:26									#70
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Well they should. And believe it or not, many Muslim women want to wear their headscarfs.

	22-12-2003 07:48									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor We know religion pretty well. Unlike you Brits, we didn't invent a non-papist religion to escape the clutches of the Catholic Church, and the memory of what it did to us is vivid. You may tell we fear religion, but we certainly not fear the unknown.

You fear religion? Good Lord man. A quick study of French history shows that religion has had more to fear from the French than do the French have to fear from religion. During their revolution the French did things to Catholic clergy and laity that make anything ever done by Protestants during the Reformation look like toddlers at play! I find it very difficult that anyone could suppose that the strictness of the old Catholic religion could have possibly warranted what was done then. In Europe throughout the 19th and 20th centuries similar mass acts of exagerrated reprisal in Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Hungary. In fact, the safest places for catholic clergy in those centuries seem to have been Protestant countries. That's not proof that the Catholic church deserved what they got. Instead I think it shows the propensity of the angry and violent to latch on to the defenseless as a surrogate target to abuse when the real source of their anguish is out of reach or when their anguish out lives the destrucion of the source. The Catholic Church was not responsible for inventing the system of repression which plagued Europe for a millenium, they were merely guilty of adapting to circumstances out of their control and then somewhat straying from their original mission.

	22-12-2003 08:13									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove A quick study of French history shows that religion has had more to fear from the French than do the French have to fear from religion.

That must be a very quick study then. On 1000 years of history, France was fervently catholic for the 800 years prior to the revolution, and still highly impregnated by the Catholic Church for the following 100 years. Only since 1905 are we completely free of the grasp of the Catholic Church, and Pétain tried to reinstate its old role.
All in all, I don't think the French 'nature' has shown any stiff opposition to religion over the centuries.

quote: During their revolution the French did things to Catholic clergy and laity that make anything ever done by Protestants during the Reformation look like toddlers at play!

Wrong. The Revolution was sure a rough time for the catholic clergy, but it wasn't characterized by massive slaughters similar to St Barthelemew's night in 1572 (where catholics massacred protestants), or like the times of the active cooperation between the King and the Inquisition. I'm sure you know the quote in your sig comes from when French Catholics massacred the Cathares to the very last (heck, I think you taught it to me).

The Revolution involved massive humiliation of priests, especially those who didn't pledge to the revolution, and massive capture of lands that were protected by the king's regime. That's not nice, but that's not comparable to the horrors the Church has guided us to do.

quote: The Catholic Church was not responsible for inventing the system of repression which plagued Europe for a millenium, they were merely guilty of adapting to circumstances out of their control and then somewhat straying from their original mission.

The Catholic Church was not the all-evil behind the medieval oppression. Despite its mediocre missions under the Romans, the Catholic Church was the only structurated and intellectual organization in the whole dark ages, and as such it had a clear opportunity to take power.
However, the Church's power lied on belief, and on the idea that it had to regulate the daily life of the people. Politics, for the Catholic Church, was not only to give blessings to some King's policies, it had strongly to do with the common man.

The Church wanted to keep its monopoly on the people's minds during the 19th century. It was challenged by the 3rd Republic, and it has lost after a bitter fight. The idea that we took vengeance upon the Church is a misconception: save for some radical agitators, religion itself wasn't the enemy. Rather, the more mainstream "anticléricaux" opposed the determination of the Church's men to impose their views on our daily lives.

	22-12-2003 08:22									#73
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quote: Despite its mediocre missions under the Romans, the Catholic Church was the only structurated and intellectual organization in the whole dark ages, and as such it had a clear opportunity to take power.

I think you may ignore that since the 14th Century, French clergy paid more attention to Paris than it did to Rome. After the Babylonian Captivity, the French clergy were very French. It's the government to blame, not the Church.

	22-12-2003 08:29									#74
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 How many muslims are there in France?

Apparantly, too many.

	22-12-2003 08:48									#75
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I keep seeing our French posters refer to this decision as a defense of Liberty, Egality, Fraternity, and I'm having a very hard time understanding this. To me, it looks more like "**** liberty in favor of egality, and forget about fraternity".

	22-12-2003 08:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus These include muslim headscarves, jewish skullcaps and christian crosses. People are forbidden from wearing them in certain public buildings. Small crosses and stars of david, are accepted however. As long as they're small and not too obvious.

So let me get this straight . . small religious symbols--which are worn by Christians--are okay. But headgear like headscarves and skullcaps--neither of which are worn by Christians--are banned. Hmm, I wonder what the message is here.

	22-12-2003 10:29									#77
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I was wondering about French politics regarding these sorts of laws. Are they generally opposed by the Socialists?

	22-12-2003 10:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Wrong. The Revolution was sure a rough time for the catholic clergy, but it wasn't characterized by massive slaughters similar to St Barthelemew's night in 1572 (where catholics massacred protestants), or like the times of the active cooperation between the King and the Inquisition. I'm sure you know the quote in your sig comes from when French Catholics massacred the Cathares to the very last (heck, I think you taught it to me). The Revolution involved massive humiliation of priests, especially those who didn't pledge to the revolution, and massive capture of lands that were protected by the king's regime. That's not nice, but that's not comparable to the horrors the Church has guided us to do.

The quote comes from the French Baron who led the expedition against the Cathars.
IIRC the Great Terror was supposed to have taken somewhere around one half million lives. Priests who refused to pledge themselves to the new state religion were considered enemies of the state and were executed after a good clean show trial. Regions which resisted the new state deisitic religion were subjected to brutal military campaigns. IIRC the Vendee was virtually depopulated. There were other provinces which were also heavily decimated simply because of rumors that the old religion was being secretly practiced.

	22-12-2003 10:43									#79
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Social Democrats or real Socialists?

	22-12-2003 10:45									#80
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The Socialist Party - Social Democrats.

	22-12-2003 10:49									#81
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I'd assume the Social Democrats (who are really just French center-lefties, Ramo) were for this law. After all, this was in the wings before the recent elections, when the Social Democrats had the power in the General Assembly.

	22-12-2003 10:52									#82
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Hmm... I thought Chirac's party was in power before the election (and still are, except have much more power).

	22-12-2003 11:00									#83
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No, before the last election, Chirac was President, but the Socialists under Jospin and Raffarin were in charge of the legislature. The last election saw the Gaullist parties take control.

	22-12-2003 11:33									#84
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the more I think about it, the more I'm in favor of banning all religious signs from schools.

As Spiffor pointed out, only a minority of the French muslim community insists on wearing the headscarf which is -IMO- a symbol of an extreme Koran interpretation. If an adult woman wants to wear it -fine by me, but we're talking about children here who have hardly been able to form an opinion on religion: they are already heavily influenced by they families and religious signs are serving as tools of separation at schools: e.g. The German headscarf-wearing teacher that was bewailing against the interdiction of headscarfs often used the arguement that girls who were wearing headscarfs themselves often asked her for advice while they'd have never dared asking a teacher who wore none. This demonstrates that there is an indoctrination in many families against any "sinners": these girls -often oppressed in families and thought to be obeying to men for the rest of their lives- are prevented from getting any different input that might let them think again on whether the religion they were born into is the right one for them. Getting rid of all religious/political signs at schools might help communication between different groups and help pupils decide by themselves. We could, of course, just ignore this issue in name of "religious freedom" and raise new generations of extremists.

	22-12-2003 11:46									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Mazarin the more I think about it, the more I'm in favor of banning all religious signs from schools. As Spiffor pointed out, only a minority of the French muslim community insists on wearing the headscarf which is -IMO- a symbol of an extreme Koran interpretation. If an adult woman wants to wear it -fine by me, but we're talking about children here who have hardly been able to form an opinion on religion: they are already heavily influenced by they families and religious signs are serving as tools of separation at schools: e.g. The German headscarf-wearing teacher that was bewailing against the interdiction of headscarfs often used the arguement that girls who were wearing headscarfs themselves often asked her for advice while they'd have never dared asking a teacher who wore none. This demonstrates that there is an indoctrination in many families against any "sinners": these girls -often oppressed in families and thought to be obeying to men for the rest of their lives- are prevented from getting any different input that might let them think again on whether the religion they were born into is the right one for them. Getting rid of all religious/political signs at schools might help communication between different groups and help pupils decide by themselves. We could, of course, just ignore this issue in name of "religious freedom" and raise new generations of extremists.

it seems to me u simply dislike freedom. as when the result u get is unpleasant u just restrict it.

its not freedom if the results by inspection has to be favorable to you.

	22-12-2003 12:13									#86
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quote: We could, of course, just ignore this issue in name of "religious freedom" and raise new generations of extremists.

I think your view is counterproductive. MORE extremists are raised by banning the headscarfs. Why? Because what will their parents tell their kids? You can't wear the headscarf because France is anti-Muslim. The kids will believe it and will not listen to debate which may be anti-Muslim.

Let them wear their scarfs and then use debate to persuade them otherwise. That is the way it should be done.

And parents do have the right to raise their kids with the morals and values they see fit.

	22-12-2003 12:23									#87
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well...if I see that something obviously goes extremely wrong (like the mentioned uprise of islamism in western Europe), then yes, I really think something has to be done. Simply ignoring the problem and putting the most obvious crimes to court (the greatest part -like violence at home remains hidden in most cases) is not enough for me. If freedom of religion implies letting children grow in an athmosphere where they are indoctrinated to disregard the most essential values of the society they live in -I'm willing to watch at my concept of religious freedom and expand it to "freedom to chose ones religion". It is not an easy question, but you sometimes need to have a closer look when one fundamental right is hurting another (to take one extreme example: If a religion implies cannibalistic rituals -am I going to do something against it or am I going to wait until the rituals have been performed and judge the participants according to laws). Freedoms of one person can be limiting the freedoms of others: giving up the freedom of wearing religious signs at school seems like a good deal when spreading freedom of choice, equality and free thought. in my book, at least.

	22-12-2003 12:44									#88
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Not that one thing has anything to do with another, but the United States is the only Industrialized nation to have school prayer in public schools, and we have by far, the highest murder rate... in total deaths and per capita...

but not that one thing has anything to do with another

	22-12-2003 12:47									#89
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Mazarin, excision of the girls is an actual example of religious practice that is NOT Muslim and we have had to forbid.

	22-12-2003 12:58									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I think your view is counterproductive. MORE extremists are raised by banning the headscarfs. Why? Because what will their parents tell their kids? You can't wear the headscarf because France is anti-Muslim. The kids will believe it and will not listen to debate which may be anti-Muslim. Let them wear their scarfs and then use debate to persuade them otherwise. That is the way it should be done.

One can argue about this point and you might be right. We shouldn't, however, just continue to ignore the problems we have now, because they're going to grow if we don't do anything now.

quote: And parents do have the right to raise their kids with the morals and values they see fit.

In my opinion, this right is not existant when it comes to extremely anti-constitutional values. Children are not their parents' property: They need to be taken care of and raised with respect for their personality: If parents abuse their children physically, they'll obviously will be taken away from them. If parents teach a girl that she's inferior to men by default; if they teach a child to belong to some "ruler race" and have the God-given right to kill others, they're abusing them mentally and should not have the right to continue this. I see a conflict of rights here: the parents' right to raise their child -and the child's right not to be abused in the name of ideologies. It isn't simple to solve, but we should be aware that such conflicts exist and be willing to solve them instead of simply relying on some artificial principle.