10-01-2004 05:13									#181
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quote: I love the convoluted notion that because he posted more than just Leviticus, that makes its call for killing gays okay. So if I posted a quote saying "Christians are rotten, they should be killed," but accompanied with nicer quotes saying, "Christians just suck," then that'd be okay? Lovely logic.

First off, does Leviticus call for Christians to kill gays? No.

Secondly, did the poster intend a call for gays to be killed through a misinterpretation of Leviticus? I don't know. I need to see the other quotes to get a better idea of why he would quote Leviticus.

I agree that it's not a good passage to use because of the reasons mentioned in my earlier posts, however it does provide an example of how much God dislikes homosexuality. Without seeing the other passages, I cannot be certain that this is the intent of the poster.

	10-01-2004 05:14									#182
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quote: A company cannot, IMHO, adopt a policy that violates the Civil Rights Act and then fire the employee for violating company policy.

they should change that law then.

	10-01-2004 05:14									#183
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quote: If it is a consious choice of lifestyle that people make, then it is a question of consiense,

But religion is not a 'choice of lifestyle.'

There is a big difference between a 'choice of lifestyle', and a 'choice of conscience.'

	10-01-2004 05:18									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Napoleon I As far as I am concerned, I'm trying to prod people to examine whether or not parts of the Bible actually constitute hate speech.

That's actually more interesting than the conversation going on about the man and his fight with HP.

	10-01-2004 05:19									#185
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quote: "Love the sinner and hate the sin" is just doublespeak whereby some Christians think it will give them a free pass to discriminate.

Boris:

If they discriminate against the PERSON that would be wrong. Why is it wrong to discriminate against a behavior? People are not merely the sum of their actions.

	10-01-2004 05:23									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But religion is not a 'choice of lifestyle.' There is a big difference between a 'choice of lifestyle', and a 'choice of conscience.'

And what would this "big difference" happen to be?

And how does Leviticus not call for killing of gays? IIRC its pretty explicit about its orders: blasphemers must be stoned by the whole congregation, gays shall have their blood upon them, etc.

	10-01-2004 05:26									#187
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's actually more interesting than the conversation going on about the man and his fight with HP.

Damn. Life passes me by again

Me -

	10-01-2004 05:30									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Napoleon I And how does Leviticus not call for killing of gays?

Because they didn't know what gays were back then so how could they be calling for thier death?

Some sex acts are sinful, others aren't. It depends mainly on the nature of the relationship between the participants.

	10-01-2004 05:31									#189
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quote: Both of his killers were boys who grew up in Christian families and went to Christian churches. But no, of course we will get the ol' song-and-dance that a Christian could never hurt nobody, nosirree. Oh, that guy killed an abortion doctor? Well, he must not really be a Christian--he's probably a closet Hindoo!

First off, 'unnamed death threats' do not necessarily mean that Christians are the ones giving them. For example, suppose the leader of the pro-choice campus group complained of death threats, and then fingered me as calling her just because I do not support her cause? Just because they do not agree with you does not mean they would want to kill you.

Secondly, look at the second part of that post you quote. Yes Christians do do bad things. The question is whether they ought to do bad things, as in whether their religion justifies their actions. You insist that Leviticus sanctions killing gays, but on what basis do you make that interpretation? What are the problems with my previous explaination?

	10-01-2004 05:35									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First off, does Leviticus call for Christians to kill gays? No.

Indeed, because there were no Christians at the time Leviticus was written.

Lev 20.13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

	10-01-2004 05:35									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Secondly, look at the second part of that post you quote. Yes Christians do do bad things. The question is whether they ought to do bad things, as in whether their religion justifies their actions. You insist that Leviticus sanctions killing gays, but on what basis do you make that interpretation? What are the problems with my previous explaination?

Look, at the end of Leviticus, God makes it perfectly clear - these are the laws I layed out, and you damn better follow them. Otherwise there is a whole list of punishments there IIRC. How then, is "Their blood will be upon them", not a call to kill?

	10-01-2004 05:45									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Napoleon I As far as I am concerned, I'm trying to prod people to examine whether or not parts of the Bible actually constitute hate speech.

Anybody who has read more than ten lines of the old Testament bumped into hate speech. The OT is so chock-full of hate, it's a wonder that the fundamentalists of a relion promoting love haven't rejected it already

	10-01-2004 05:50									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Anybody who has read more than ten lines of the old Testament bumped into hate speech. The OT is so chock-full of hate, it's a wonder that the fundamentalists of a relion promoting love haven't rejected it already

I'm just trying to see how they try to play out of that hole

	10-01-2004 05:56									#194
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quote: Indeed, because there were no Christians at the time Leviticus was written.

And why would that be? What had to happen for there to be Christians at all?

For Christians, all of the OT must be interpreted in light of Christ's teachings, which is why Leviticus cannot call Christians to kill gays. The specific context, as I already posted, limits these punishments to the situation of Moses and the Israelites.

As for the hyperbole that any 10 lines of the OT will contain some hate speech, then I would suggest that you actually read some of the OT. I find it incredible that anyone could interpret something that they refuse to read on their own.

	10-01-2004 06:07									#195
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quote: And why would that be? What had to happen for there to be Christians at all?

Jesus Christ.

quote: For Christians, all of the OT must be interpreted in light of Christ's teachings, which is why Leviticus cannot call Christians to kill gays. The specific context, as I already posted, limits these punishments to the situation of Moses and the Israelites.

So, the teachings of the OT are second hand, and should not be taken literarily by Christians? This is good news. Fundamentalist Christianism can only become less stupid if it doesn't intend to obey the OT without second thought.
But since ca. 90% of the Law is hateful or murderous, I guess the Christians are to completely disregard it.

quote: As for the hyperbole that any 10 lines of the OT will contain some hate speech, then I would suggest that you actually read some of the OT. I find it incredible that anyone could interpret something that they refuse to read on their own.

I didn't read the OT entirely, but last time we discussed it, I've brought up points you didn't even know about (my favourite being how raped women should be stoned to death for not calling for help loud enough, Deuteronomy 22: 23-24)

I've read enough of the OT to tell Biblical stories the believers in my Family never heard about, such as when God punished Miriam for having warned Moses he was breaking the Law of God (Numbers, Chapter 12)

I have a quote drom the OT in my Sig I discovered in my random searches there (Ezekiel 13:20)

I admit I haven't read the garbage that is the OT in its entirety. But I'm much less ignorant of it that you want to believe. And I'm decidedly not opposed to reading it, just like I'm not opposed in reading Mein Kampf. Nothing like knowing the real reasons why to oppose extremists

	10-01-2004 06:07									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And why would that be? What had to happen for there to be Christians at all? For Christians, all of the OT must be interpreted in light of Christ's teachings, which is why Leviticus cannot call Christians to kill gays. The specific context, as I already posted, limits these punishments to the situation of Moses and the Israelites. As for the hyperbole that any 10 lines of the OT will contain some hate speech, then I would suggest that you actually read some of the OT. I find it incredible that anyone could interpret something that they refuse to read on their own.

That's a pretty lame excuse. Yes the OT is interpreted in light of Christ's teachings, but like I said, I doubt Christians consider themselves to be less devout than Jews in regards to sin. And to my knowledge the NT never reverses God's position on sin. So, at best Christians are presented with two coflicting courses of action and therefore must choose to discard one of them.

	10-01-2004 06:12									#197
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A Pox on both of you!

	10-01-2004 06:23									#198
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quote: Fundamentalist Christianism can only become less stupid if it doesn't intend to obey the OT without second thought

Agreed.

quote: I admit I haven't read the garbage that is the OT in its entirety.

Well, then how can you know that EVERY ten lines of the OT contain hate speech?

quote: But since ca. 90% of the Law is hateful or murderous, I guess the Christians are to completely disregard it.

So hate is merely what you don't agree with. Glad to hear.

	10-01-2004 06:27									#199
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quote: Yes the OT is interpreted in light of Christ's teachings, but like I said, I doubt Christians consider themselves to be less devout than Jews in regards to sin.

Upon what do you base this assumption? Scripture?

'He who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.'

quote: And to my knowledge the NT never reverses God's position on sin. So, at best Christians are presented with two coflicting courses of action and therefore must choose to discard one of them.

And where did I say that the message of sin has changed from the OT to the NT? The message of sin has not changed, but the punishment has. Can anyone tell me why this is the case, that the punishments in the OT would no longer be needed?

	10-01-2004 06:53									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So hate is merely what you don't agree with. Glad to hear.

Add inequality, unfairness, and pretty much anything that is opposed to the real values of Christianship (which I support very much; even though I don't believe in the magical juju, I think Jesus brought a message very much worth listening to), and you'll have all I oppose in the OT. And this thing is full of it. That's why I think Christian fundamentalists who find a justification for their hatred in the OT are a disgrace to Christianty.

	10-01-2004 06:58									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Upon what do you base this assumption? Scripture? 'He who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.' And where did I say that the message of sin has changed from the OT to the NT? The message of sin has not changed, but the punishment has. Can anyone tell me why this is the case, that the punishements in the OT would no longer be needed?

Where does Christ explicitly reverse God's position on punishments? For those that haven't repented? All the talk about loving the man and hating sin, is never explicitly in position to directly contradict the OT. It is merely inconsistent. And besides, the Christian Church has continually upheld the principle that it has a right to punish unrepentant sinners on earth. And since NT never directly proposes new punishments, I would think the OT punishments still apply.

	10-01-2004 07:04									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi But religion is not a 'choice of lifestyle.'

It certainly IS a choice of lifestyle. You have more choice into your religion than you do sexual orientation.

	10-01-2004 07:07									#203
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quote: And besides, the Christian Church has continually upheld the principle that it has a right to punish unrepentant sinners on earth.

Show me where the church says this. Scripture explicitly says the opposite, that Christians are to leave such duties to God.

quote: Where does Christ explicitly reverse God's position on punishments? For those that haven't repented?

Your own statement demonstrates the difference. Could the Israelites repent of such sins and still expect God to forgive them? According to Leviticus this is not the case. Why is it now a person can repent from his sins and expect God to forgive them?

	10-01-2004 07:12									#204
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quote: real values of Christianship (which I support very much; even though I don't believe in the magical juju, I think Jesus brought a message very much worth listening to), and you'll have all I oppose in the OT.

Spiffor:

Good.

What then do you say about this passage?

Matthew 5:17-8

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. "

Christ, whom you have said taught many great things clearly values the Old Testament. So why do you accept him on one occasion, yet reject him in another?

	10-01-2004 07:18									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Christ, whom you have said taught many great things clearly values the Old Testament. So why do you accept him on one occasion, yet reject him in another?

Because I am not a zealot

In other news, Marx has said great things, yet his whole economical model sucks.
Bourdieu has said many great things, but his methodology sucks.
Jesus has said many great things, but his closeness to the Jewish Law sucks.

	10-01-2004 07:24									#206
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quote: It certainly IS a choice of lifestyle.

True, but it is much more than that. I don't do it just because it feels good.

	10-01-2004 07:26									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Show me where the church says this. Scripture explicitly says the opposite, that Christians are to leave such duties to God.

Unfortunately Christian practice falls far short of Christian theory. As I'm sure the first Christians killed for their faith in North America could agree (French Huguenots massacred by the Spanish).

Then of course there's the Quaker woman hanged by the god fearing Protestant refugees in the English speaking colonies.

The Spanish garrison massacred by French forces in retaliation for the earlier massacre.

Then let's not forget all the various doctrinal disputes which ended in death, the Inquisition in Spain, the Jewish pogroms dating from early mediaeval times until the twentieth century, the Albigensian crusade, the activities of the Teutonic knights against pagan Lithuanians, the wars of religion in France, England, Scotland, Germany, the Low Countries, Switzerland, the Balkans, and so on, and so on.

But of course, the get out is to say, 'ah, but these weren't real Christians- I know what real Christians are' which I'm sure would be great comfort to someone killed because they wouldn't accept someone else's dogma.

	10-01-2004 07:40									#208
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First off, I agree with all the things molly mentioned, and second, enlighten me, Ben, when a person confesses a sin at confession, doesn't the priest tell him to do some sort of penance? Isn't that a punishment? In monastic orders in particular, aren't people continually punished for "sins"?
Without thumbing through the Scripture, I know that the entire history of past Church practices proves that it views punishment as a its duty.

	10-01-2004 07:41									#209
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quote: Because I am not a zealot

So only a zealot is consistent? Glad to know.

Care to try a real argument?

	10-01-2004 07:48									#210
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quote: First off, I agree with all the things molly mentioned, and second, enlighten me, Ben, when a person confesses a sin at confession, doesn't the priest tell him to do some sort of penance?

I'm not permitted to go to confession. I may love Catholics, but I'm not one myself. So the Catholics here should correct me if I am wrong about penance.

In my understanding, a person who has sincerely repented of his sins will seek to rectify them, through some sort of penance. The idea is that while God forgives your sin, the effects will still be felt, and you should try to fix these effects as soon as possible.