10-01-2004 07:48									#211
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Wow we got this thread to 200+ posts. Look it's getting pretty hot and heavy in here.

So look, Ben, I don't really want to sit here and argue over details of what Scripture does or doesn't say, since even you must admit that actions of Christians are quite different from what they should be. If you believe that punishment should be left to the Big Guy only, that's cool by me. That means we agree that on earth it is not anybody's right to harass people for what someone might perceive as "sin"

Therefore, lets all acknowledge that the man was fired properly and leave it at that?

	10-01-2004 07:53									#212
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I agreed quite some time ago that the man should be fired, if for nothing else, than failing to do his job, and insubordination.

I don't agree with his methods, I think that he should have spoken to his superiors about the policy, and how he felt the policy violated his own beliefs. If no resolution could be had, he should have publicly resigned his position, and declared why he could no longer work for the company he worked for 21 years.

Where I've been arguing is mostly about whether that particular biblical passage constitutes hate speech.

quote: That means we agree that on earth it is not anybody's right to harass people for what someone might perceive as "sin"

So long as quoting scripture constitutes 'harassment,' then no dice. Christians have a duty to remind the world of sin. How they do so will depend on the person.

	10-01-2004 07:58									#213
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Actually, the hate speech part is what I think the core of the issue is, as well. So to get back to the point, would you agree that the same passage not quoted from the Bible is hate speech?
Can you honestly tell me that public dissemination of statements such as this does not contribute to hatred of homosexuals, at least among certain groups of fundy Christians?

	10-01-2004 08:01									#214
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molly:

quote: I know what real Christians are' which I'm sure would be great comfort to someone killed because they wouldn't accept someone else's dogma.

What do you suppose would be more comforting to the dying man, knowledge that an innocent will be exonerated at the resurrection, or that those who did kill sinners were perfectly justified in doing so?

	10-01-2004 08:15									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So only a zealot is consistent?

Only a zealot does follow a whole set of belief elaborated by somebody else without doubting on any single point.

What I like in Jesus' message are the concepts of forgiveness, unconditional love, and empathy. In comparison with the bloodthirsty values of the ancient times, such message was a huge progress.
However, the acceptance of such philosophy does not require to accept the Jewish Law.
That's because I'm fond of the message of love Jesus happened to be very instrumental in spreading (but he wasn't the first one to develop it - you can find some elements of this message in Plato). Not because I'm fan of the guy, or of the religious juju

	10-01-2004 08:20									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi molly: What do you suppose would be more comforting to the dying man, knowledge that an innocent will be exonerated at the resurrection, or that those who did kill sinners were perfectly justified in doing so?

You're presupposing a lot.

What I suspect would be more comforting to the person being killed would be freedom to live their life as they saw fit, and not to have to die at the hands of a religious fanatic whose practice won't square with their theory. Frankly I don't care a jot whether or not a Christian thinks they're saving my immortal soul by killing me/saving me- I don't share their philosophy.

	10-01-2004 08:23									#217
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quote: follow a whole set of belief elaborated by somebody else without doubting on any single point.

What about someone who rejects something because he finds it uncomfortable? Zealotry flows both ways, for open minds as well as closed.

I do not find the OT bloodthirsty, but rather very different from the NT. One would expect this to be the case given the time periods covered by the book. If you read the OT, you see vast portions of history, followed by wisdom literature, and then prophecies.

My question to you is about the Psalms? Do you find them bloodthirsty? What about Job?

	10-01-2004 08:31									#218
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quote: What I suspect would be more comforting to the person being killed would be freedom to live their life as they saw fit, and not to have to die at the hands of a religious fanatic whose practice won't square with their theory. Frankly I don't care a jot whether or not a Christian thinks they're saving my immortal soul by killing me/saving me- I don't share their philosophy.

Molly, I presuppose to fit your examples, of Christians persecuting each other. Both will believe in the resurrection, yet neither will believe that the other will be going to heaven, neither the dying man, nor the killer.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that the killer would think that he would be saving the other by killing him, that's not something anyone has said up until now.

I would think that the victim would consider himself a martyr, and that it does not matter what they do to him in this life, since God will punish his killer in the next life.

	10-01-2004 08:37									#219
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quote: Actually, the hate speech part is what I think the core of the issue is, as well. So to get back to the point, would you agree that the same passage not quoted from the Bible is hate speech?

Depends on the statement. Suppose I said that it was an abomination for a man to lie with another man as one would lie with a woman, is that grounds for hate speech?

quote: Can you honestly tell me that public dissemination of statements such as this does not contribute to hatred of homosexuals, at least among certain groups of fundy Christians?

Not if properly instructed. Any scripture can become troublesome if misused.

	10-01-2004 08:42									#220
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WTF!? How did this thread explode so much since I was here several hours ago?

anyway:

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Mr. Fun: Even if I were on Apolyton, I am not required to answer any of your posts, on any subject. That being said, I've been busy today, with classes and whatnot. So deal with it. Actually, I'm glad you made your post, I wondered if anyone would make this argument last night. It's a very deep question into why do we have freedom of religion. Christians expect to receive discrimination, from a variety of places just by being outspoken. However, it is society that has chosen to protect these beliefs. We have not always had religious freedom. It used to be that if you were a Catholic, or heaven forbid, a Jew or Muslim in a Protestant country, you would not be able to do the same things as a Protestant. One example would be Catholics in Britain, before Catholic Emancipation, in that the Catholics would not be able to serve in the house of Parliament, they would not be able to own land our property. As such, they were marginalised. In many Catholic countries, you could expect similar treatment for being Protestant, and in many cases, you could even expected to be burned for heresy. Now, what would change all this? It became recognised, that while people do make a choice to join a religion, that this choice has something to do with freedom of speech, and conscience. How could one have a right to speak out on unpopular subjects, yet not also have the right to practice those beliefs, regardless of your religious sect? Interestingly, one could even make the argument that religious freedom exists not to protect the Christians and believers, but rather the unbelievers, or those who for whatever reason did not choose to believe. In having religious freedom, they could also be free to not practice, as they would also be free to practice. So what makes other choices, like smoking, or homosexuality different from religion? Is it proper to say that homosexuality is a matter of the conscience, like religion? The very fact that people question how does homosexuality arise would seem to be evidence to the contrary.

So basically, you're arguing that because we know how people arrive at a decision to be faithful to one particular religion, that it can seen as a matter of conscience.

But because we do not know how sexual orientation develops (how did you, for instance, become heterosexual -- did you choose to be straight?), I'm willing to still play devil's advocate though, with sexual orientation being a choice.

Ok, let's say sexual orientation is a choice -- because you say that we're not sure how arises, that it cannot be a matter of conscience??

But why would choices made by mutually consenting, competent adults have to be seen as something on a high level of conscience before those choices can be respected by others anyway??

And I really don't like sexual orientation being compared with addiction disorders, like smoking, alcoholism, and so forth as though they are literally the same. Being gay is not a disorder or a type of sex addiction.

	10-01-2004 08:46									#221
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Boris -

quote: This is, fo course, nonsense, because HP's firing this guy had nothing to do with discrimination. It had to do with him beinf insubordinate.

But the guy charged discrimination and the court dealt with the issue of discrimination:

quote: "Hewlett-Packard's efforts to eradicate discrimination against homosexuals in its workplace were entirely consistent with the goals and objectives of our civil rights statutes generally," Reinhardt wrote.

HP is dealing with discrimination, the homosexuals at HP are charging this guy with discrimination, and he's charging HP with discrimination. If this guy had put up a poster of Big Bird or something mundane and HP fired him for not removing the poster, then discrimination would not be involved. The insubordination arises from the issue of discrimination... Read what a judge from the 9th said, HP's effort to eradicate discrimination is consistent with the government's goal of eradicating discrimination...

	10-01-2004 08:47									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Depends on the statement. Suppose I said that it was an abomination for a man to lie with another man as one would lie with a woman, is that grounds for hate speech? Not if properly instructed. Any scripture can become troublesome if misused.

The abomination part would have me worried, but still in the area of valid personal conviction. Coupled with the next statement though about surely being put to death and blood being upon them, I don't see any room for doubt.

And how about an example of how these statements can be "properly instructed" not to cause hate?

	10-01-2004 08:53									#223
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quote: Originally posted by gamenaught The problem isn’t everyone else. The problem is that Christianity is so slappable.

sig material

	10-01-2004 08:54									#224
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quote: (how did you, for instance, become heterosexual -- did you choose to be straight?), I'm willing to still play devil's advocate though, with sexual orientation being a choice.

I like women, I didn't choose that. But in choosing to exercise that desire, that's where the choice comes in.
So which is sexual orientation? The desire or the decision?

quote: But why would choices made by mutually consenting, competent adults have to be seen as something on a high level of conscience before those choices can be respected by others anyway??

Why do you feel the need to add such words as consent and competency into your argument? For the same reason we feel that respect ought to be linked to matters of conscience.

quote: And I really don't like sexual orientation being compared with addiction disorders, like smoking, alcoholism, and so forth as though they are literally the same. Being gay is not a disorder or a type of sex addiction.

Then stop.

	10-01-2004 08:58									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about someone who rejects something because he finds it uncomfortable? Zealotry flows both ways, for open minds as well as closed.

I do not understand you. Do you mean that everytime a person rejects an idea, he's a zealot? The whole human population would qualify for zealotry with such a definition.

quote: I do not find the OT bloodthirsty, but rather very different from the NT. One would expect this to be the case given the time periods covered by the book. If you read the OT, you see vast portions of history, followed by wisdom literature, and then prophecies.

Yes. And blood. Lots and lots andlots of blood. And this is considered not only as a good thing, but as the thing to do. When the OT calls for lapidation of women, this is bloodthirsty. When the OT describes how God kills people for daily life sins (Onan), or simply for belonging to a tribe at war with Israel, it is bloodthirsty.

quote: My question to you is about the Psalms? Do you find them bloodthirsty? What about Job?

I didn't read them. Maybe those are texts going along well with the ideals of Christianty. What does it change?

	10-01-2004 08:59									#226
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quote: Coupled with the next statement though about surely being put to death and blood being upon them, I don't see any room for doubt. And how about an example of how these statements can be "properly instructed" not to cause hate?

See my previous post on the interpretation of the passage. That's why this statement in scripture would not be hate speech.

As for the latter section, the question still remains as to who would be responsible to put them to death. The isolated statement cannot answer that question.

	10-01-2004 09:01									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then stop.

Why should he?

	10-01-2004 09:04									#228
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quote: I didn't read them.

Spiffor:

You should.

Read Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, that whole section of the Old Testament.

quote: I do not understand you. Do you mean that everytime a person rejects an idea, he's a zealot? The whole human population would qualify for zealotry with such a definition.

I edited that passage, wasn't happy with the sentence.

What I meant is that just blithely rejecting a passage because it does not agree with you is just as zealous as one who accepts everything at face value.

People who consider a passage that they do not agree with would not fall under this criticism.

	10-01-2004 09:04									#229
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Ben, are you arguing orientation or promiscuity?

	10-01-2004 09:06									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I didn't read them. Maybe those are texts going along well with the ideals of Christianty. What does it change?

It changes your every ten lines is full of hate, no?

	10-01-2004 09:16									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi See my previous post on the interpretation of the passage. That's why this statement in scripture would not be hate speech. As for the latter section, the question still remains as to who would be responsible to put them to death. The isolated statement cannot answer that question.

Ok, so let me see how this works. Say person A writes a book and says in it "Dancing is an abomination. Dancers should be killed". A lot of people believe it. Then somebody writes a sequel which says "Yes dancing is an abomination, but lets not kill them now."

Now if I would make signs that have quotes from the first book about how dancers should be killed, how is that not hate speech? Does the NT change the fact that in this passage God clearly says "They must surely be put to death"?

	10-01-2004 09:20									#232
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It changes your every ten lines is full of hate, no?

Yes.
But it was an hyperbole, I wasn't into having an extra-accurate report. Biblical scholars are much better than me to calculate the precise hate per line mean.

	10-01-2004 09:39									#233
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i HEARD THAT THIS WAS CIV2000

	10-01-2004 09:53									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yes. But it was an hyperbole, I wasn't into having an extra-accurate report. Biblical scholars are much better than me to calculate the precise hate per line mean.

Oh.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Anybody who has read more than ten lines of the old Testament bumped into hate speech. The OT is so chock-full of hate, it's a wonder that the fundamentalists of a relion promoting love haven't rejected it already

Was this hyperbole too?

	10-01-2004 10:08									#235
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This was the very hyperbole I was referring to

	10-01-2004 10:13									#236
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So, what hasn't been hyperbole?

	10-01-2004 10:29									#237
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quote: The OT is so chock-full of hate, it's a wonder that the fundamentalists of a relion promoting love haven't rejected it already

This isn't a hyperbole. The figure "10 lines and you bump some hate speech" is.

	10-01-2004 10:35									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What I meant is that just blithely rejecting a passage because it does not agree with you is just as zealous as one who accepts everything at face value.

I'm not sure. Unconditional belief is zealot for sure, but unconditional rejection need not to be. For example, I think a guy like you would be really furious when reading Mein Kampf, or when reading some Muslim piece of religious garbage. I don't think there is any zealotry in that.

	10-01-2004 10:41									#239
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Look, if Sava's fist punches my face, then my face has also punched Sava's fist.

However, Sava is the one guilty of assault and not me.

If X discriminates against Y, X is the guilty one. It is not discrimination to punish X.

	10-01-2004 10:45									#240
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As for the loveable Psalms

Psalms Chapter 59

quote: Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me. Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men. For, lo, they lie in wait for my soul: the mighty are gathered against me; not for my transgression, nor for my sin, O LORD. They run and prepare themselves without my fault: awake to help me, and behold. Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah. They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city. Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear? But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision. Because of his strength will I wait upon thee: for God is my defence. The God of my mercy shall prevent me: God shall let me see my desire upon mine enemies. Slay them not, lest my people forget: scatter them by thy power; and bring them down, O Lord our shield. For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak. Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah. Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah. Let them wander up and down for meat, and grudge if they be not satisfied. But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble. Unto thee, O my strength, will I sing: for God is my defence, and the God of my mercy.

Yeah, a text that does overgeneralisations on "all heatens", that calls God to "consume them". Gotta torment some "wicked trangressors", don't we?

Besides, after a short scanning, the text looks impressively cultist, in the meaning that the inferiority of people toward God seems reminded in each chapter. Since I appreciate the message of Jesus from a human perspective, I sure don't like such reference to mankind's powerlessness.