10-02-2004 05:27									#181
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@-Jrabbit,

What a great read your log was!! So what if you didn't remember to build two barracks. With all you had to keep up with in following those rules, who could fault you, especially with all the good things you accomplished.

But that game has special rules, unlike freeforall. Where the rules permit unlimited discretion, barracks are too cheap to leave out of the War Plan, IMHO.

Now here's another question...

If I'm not mistaken, this game has an open win condition. I find it mildly interesting that nobody broached the idea of a defensive approach and a run for the stars. I guess war is more gratifying, heh??

Monk

	10-02-2004 05:34									#182
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Naw. I'm not so sensitive. I was more trying to make sure that there isn't some way to avoid the high cost of changing governments. And you're all right, I should have gone with barracks before troops. I suppose you could consider that to be the submission of my application to the Institute......

The first part is

As for the last, this particular Institute (if someone will found the dang thang!!) does not take applications. It's more like a reform school.


Check out Julius who has been cleaning its rooms for more than a year.

Monk

	10-02-2004 05:58									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Check out Julius who has been cleaning its rooms for more than a year. Monk

... especially if you have had the pleasure of visiting Switzerland after spending a few days in France

In Switzerland, when someone says 'it's clean', you can bet

	10-02-2004 06:21									#184
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"The first part is"

Ouch!

Hey, I just wanted to see if there was something I had missed..........

	10-02-2004 06:29									#185
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette ... especially if you have had the pleasure of visiting Switzerland after spending a few days in France In Switzerland, when someone says 'it's clean', you can bet

How true!! I remember 30 odd years ago tramping around Switzerland. The villages defined the term pristine for me; they were like picture postcards. And travelling from the Swiss side of Geneva to the French, I was shocked at shabbiness of the French. In comparison, on the Swiss side, the window boxes held pretty flowers while a few blocks away in France there was laundry hanging to dry.

Not to say that Swiss are fanatic about cleaning, but Julius, not satisfied with his first run through, has started over redoing some of the rooms. It's a safe bet that the Institute is quite clean by now, according to nonSwiss standards anyway.

Monk

	10-02-2004 06:57									#186
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Hey, I just wanted to see if there was something I had missed..........

Excepting the bit previously discussed...

Let's look at the white goods under way. Why build sewers in size 8 cities or aquaducts in size4. This is Fundy gov't. Those cities are ages away from needing those improvements and that spells big waste of coins for unneeded maintenance each turn. If you change the Gov't from the previous ruler, it's agood idea to recheck the build orders (which is my guess at what might have happened.)

Also, remember that in a Fundy Gov't temples bring in tithes. Rushing a harbor in a cities with 3-4 food surplus but no temple is out of sequence. IMHO of course.

With 40+ cities and only 11 (+3) Engineers, I think more combat engineers are called for, to say nothing of RR crewing.

That's all I can do for now; and anyway, I'm missing the Dog Show!!

There is a maxim I like a lot to the effect that "Advanced Planning is best done early on." Discriminative choices are easier if you have a plan to judge them by.

Monk

	10-02-2004 08:45									#187
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Just a couple of thoughts in passing --

I actually stayed in Fundy longer than my first plan (we may end up there for further adventures in the future anyway.)

I agree with JRabbit -- fanatics are great starters for other things...and pound for pound they are great buys in their own right.

Yup, a lot of empty cities -- as long as they are in the interior, so what?

I threw away a few non-vet cav units vs muskets behind city walls (Sidon). I think we'll need Artys for those, and maybe vet Artys just to make sure. My vet cav did OK.

I like having a couple, maybe a few DD out searching...and have a boat/dip combo for huts following them. But, once I have a boat chain in place, it make sense to me to ride that wave as long as the freight rolls along to the ports.

But all in all, reasonably good stuff -- welcome to the team!

	10-02-2004 09:16									#188
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1804. Open game. 49 Cities - my, my predecessors have been busy! Researching Corporation, in 3 turns, still with Leo. There are a bunch of caravans in Flash which could be used for Suffrage or UN, or delivered for cash. We are in Republic(??) at 30% Lux, about to celebrate and grow in about 10 cities. Ho Hum. What would be wrong with celebrating Fundy? We have just started conquering Persia, and the Celts are getting thin. Also warring with the Carts, who have some nice fat cities too. It would be nice to get to corporation before delivering freights. That's 3 turns unless I make a fat delivery. The war effort looks short of units in all three places. The Pyramids are half a world away. but Persepolis has Oracle! Still functioning!. There are 5 caravans in persian territory waiting for an upgrade. Two are coal, demanded in Persepolis and Pasagardae. A Central City Gold delivery to Persia may help the science effort.

Make some cities celebrate, press enter.

1806 Deliver caravans for about 600g and beakers, and next advance next turn. Attacked Cart city with our destroyer. not a very co-ordinated effort. It will have to limp back to port. Continued the railroad building effort on the home continent. Bought caravans in cities producing coal and silk.

1808 Corporation =>Espionage, of course!. Deliver some freights for astonishingly low payoffs, but there is still a chance of getting Espionage in 2 turns. Aqueduct in Canal Zone, 2 Whales,

1810 Freights from Tiny Towns to Central City so that the small towns will have at least one nice trade route. Adjust for continued growth.

1812 Espionage=>Steel. Mata Hari arrives in Bear Paw, looks around, establishes Embassy, secretly destroys Granary and returns to Stony Lake to brag about her experience. MonkWine Coal to Persepolis (d, 275) . Our Polar spy picks up another 100g. Aqueduct in East Canal; Sewer in Santa Anita. Uh-oh - a sticky mouse at work! (Accidently clicks enter about 10 minutes of micromanagement too soon)

1814 Persians steal something (not espionage or Tactics...). We declare War. Our Rifle is bribed. Many cities fall out of celebration. A debacle, a debacle! Our spy investigates Pasagardae and establishes embassy; our cavalrytakes out a few obsolete Persian units. We are able to deliver Raz Holiday Silver to Pasagardae (d, 255), and restore some of the celebrations. Rats - I was planning to revolt to Fundy and clobber the Persians.

PPP (Preliminary Persian Plan): Lots of Cannons, lets say 6. Four engineers. Build Rail to Pasargadae, kill the 4 musketeers. We do indeed want Persepolis and the oracle as well

1816 Persians in Communism. They have almost completed Suffrage. They dash their units upon our defences. Steel=>Machine Tools (Artillery better than Cannon) Spy destroys City Walls in Pasagardae! Rush freights to build a 600 shield wonder. Quandary: If we beat them to Suffrage they will build UN instead, and we will not be able to prosecute the war further. On the other hand, Suffrage gives us the possibility to wage war in Republic. Feh! We opt for UN! We can capture Suffrage later, once we get to Fundy.

1818 Suffreage in Tyre (location?) Sioux - the senate forces cease-fire. We build UN in NW of Canal Zone.
Our Celtic lady bribes a horse and a Caravel. Our exploring spy makes a misstep and finds herself surrounded by Barbarians; she bribes one who escapes to catch our transport, but her cover is irrevocably blown.
We deliver two quick gold freighte for 200g each to Persian coastal cities.

1820 Two spies die in action. Our Celtic spy bribes an Ironclad and the revolting city of Caerphilly (a technical term, not a value judgement...). Four vet cavalry takes out the four muskets in Pasargadae; Persians offer cease fire (we need it)

1822 Caerphilly blows up, government collapses. We choose Fundy, but our successor can make another change this turn. We are in a cease-fire with the Persians, at war with the Celts, peace with the Sioux, etc. The next 10 turns should be a truly enjoyable bloodbath. Loot will increase if we can capture Persepolis and the Oracle. Machine Tools should upgrade all those cannons to Artillery in a very short number of turns.

Who was the wimp who mentioned a Spaceship??

	10-02-2004 09:52									#189
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This is a general comment directed to everyone who has played since Rasputin posted the a1140 save and La Fayette built/finished Shake's in 1180.

Nobody has disbanded the temple in Central City

Then, to make matters worse, Rasputin seems to have built a colosseum in CenCity as well. This appears in the 1774 save. Three players have played since then. (Now four it seems)

To review:
Shakespeare's Theatre ends all unhappiness problems in that city. Therefore, temple and colosseum are redundant and should be disbanded. Why?? To save on turn maintenance.

Monk...the bloody one

	10-02-2004 13:01									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk This is a general comment directed to everyone who has played since Rasputin posted the a1140 save and La Fayette built/finished Shake's in 1180. Nobody has disbanded the temple in Central City Monk...the bloody one

I have just checked my 1380AD savegame: No temple in Central City.
I guess I sold the temple as soon as Shake was completed (as usual).
Which save did you look at?

	10-02-2004 13:43									#191
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette I have just checked my 1380AD savegame: No temple in Central City. I guess I sold the temple as soon as Shake was completed (as usual). Which save did you look at?

I am so sorry for my bad wording. I can see that was not very clear. You are correct in what you say, La Fayette. I said...

quote: Then, to make matters worse, Rasputin seems to have built a colosseum in CenCity as well. This appears in the 1774 save. Three players have played since then.

I was trying to say that Rasputin had built both a temple and a colosseum in the 1774 turnset, and everyone subsequent missed that bit of nonsense. I mentioned your turn to bring in how long Shake's has been in hand. Sorry for the confusion.

In this game many questionable white goods have been selected for build where "build more camels" would have been more cost effective, I think.

Monk

	10-02-2004 13:48									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I believe (you can check) I was responding to my brother, Rasputin, who had stated a more general case, it seemed to me. Folk sure do seem to be more sensitive these days. And you are definitely correct that all plans "go out the window" when you blunder into a gov't collapse. But, I was speaking of the more general case where you choose to revolt...at the proper time, in the proper way, to minimize the major downside to spending the one turn in Anarchy. Because those hits can be very large, I mentioned micro managing the changeover. Sorry if you took it personally. Monk

My post was i nrefernce to the government collaps that occured and followed your response, i thoguht you were saying you could control a government collapse.

	10-02-2004 13:59									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I am so sorry for my bad wording. I can see that was not very clear. You are correct in what you say, La Fayette. I said... I was trying to say that Rasputin had built both a temple and a colosseum in the 1774 turnset, and everyone subsequent missed that bit of nonsense. I mentioned your turn to bring in how long Shake's has been in hand. Sorry for the confusion. In this game many questionable white goods have been selected for build where "build more camels" would have been more cost effective, I think. Monk

thats why i am the newbie....

only way to learn is to play ....

	10-02-2004 14:56									#194
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Monk - Weren't we basically in Fundy where those improvements are free tax generators? Plus, we have Adam Smith so the incremental cost on Temples is zero.

In my recent turnset in Republic (!), I focused on what I hope will be the last period of WLTCD growth for our glorious Civ. Some white goods needed to be bought for growth purposes. Since I contemplated a quick return to Fundy I didn't want to sell off any potential tithe machines. And if somebody gets the Oracle we get double the fun.

I still expect to be facing an extended trip to the Institute, but not, I think, over this issue.

	10-02-2004 15:01									#195
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i reaaly ewnjoyinmg my little excursion to the institute.....

	10-02-2004 20:38									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Grigor Monk - Weren't we basically in Fundy where those improvements are free tax generators? Plus, we have Adam Smith so the incremental cost on Temples is zero. In my recent turnset in Republic (!), I focused on what I hope will be the last period of WLTCD growth for our glorious Civ. Some white goods needed to be bought for growth purposes. Since I contemplated a quick return to Fundy I didn't want to sell off any potential tithe machines. And if somebody gets the Oracle we get double the fun. I still expect to be facing an extended trip to the Institute, but not, I think, over this issue.

Lots of turns in Democracy so not tax free. And colosseum is not covered by Adam Smith. And Oracle will double nothing that Shake's hasn't already covered.

And to be completely cost accountant about it, the colosseum is not tax free even under Fundy. It makes 3 content = 3 tithes, but has a maintenance of 4 per turn.

And this is a new issue but why have 50% science under Fundy?? Science under Fundy is better done by deliveries, especially after getting your trade cities to celebrate.

Monk

	10-02-2004 22:01									#197
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The temple is free and will mostly generate money, so it should be kept. The colosseum costs more than it generates even in fundy, so it should be sold. In fact, if Shakespeare's was already there, the colosseum shouldn't have been built in the first place. I have to admit, looking for things to sell is something I only do when I have granaries and Pyramids or maybe Sun Tzu and barracks, or at the time when I build Shakespeare's. In my own games, these things rarely happen except when I capture cities, so that's pretty much the only time when I sell anything.

	10-02-2004 23:25									#198
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I agree with debeest, the only improvements I am likely to sell are those which are completely useless (eg. granary when you have pyramids). Otherwise I think it is better to keep what you have built, as you must have built it for a reason and therein lies Bloody Monks point I think...white goods should only be built where there is a reason to build them, if no good reason to build any of the available white goods.......build a camel. (at least that is this newly permanent resident of the institutes take on city build orders strategy).

	10-02-2004 23:44									#199
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Woah up there!!

Tithe generators do NOT have upkeep under Fundy!

Either that or I need some re-education at The Institute!

Stu

	11-02-2004 03:47									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Woah up there!! Tithe generators do NOT have upkeep under Fundy! Either that or I need some re-education at The Institute! Stu

Of course you are correct, Stu. It's even in the manual!!

I'll go to The Institute (as soon as someone builds it) AFTER I get back from hospital, from which I seem to have left too soon. Whatever was I thinking??

I went over the top trying to emphasize what I still think is a valid point. While in Democracy, in a city with Shake's, a temple and a colosseum was built. Completely unnecessary use of shields and coin, I believe. Since then, every ruler has changed the Gov't; Fundy, Dem, Fundy again. It will no doubt be changed again. While they have value in Fundy, they will be a drag in Dem or Com.

And about that cost accounting point...cue Roseanne Roseannadanna to say in her high pitched voice, "Never Mind."

Monk

	11-02-2004 03:57									#201
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Um.... I'll see you at the Institute, Monk. I'll be the one using an eyebrow pencil to clean the grouting.

	11-02-2004 04:00									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I'll go to The Institute (as soon as someone builds it) AFTER I get back from hospital, from which I seem to have left too soon. Whatever was I thinking??

Hang in there, Monk.

Be a good boy so the nice doctors will let you come out and play on occasion.
My thoughts are with you.

	11-02-2004 07:24									#203
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When KRC was built around 400ad there was a general level of uneasiness expressed. But looking back over the way the game progressed, it seems to have paid off well and lasted about 1400 yrs.

So hat's off to Grigor!!

I think we stopped building KRC because it seemed to come late and expire early. It will take someone with a clearer head than mine to say why it worked so well this time, and I hope to see some discussion about this, please.

Monk (thinking of Templars )

	11-02-2004 08:04									#204
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KRC did lead to some level of frustration with Central City: several people expressed dispair at "wasting" it on caravan building since it was in the mid 30's.

If Eng is early enough KRC is a good deal. Starlifter at CFC did an analysis once that showed that KRC gives you a high-production city (pair it with Shakes) well before the pollution techs kick in to burden you with cleanup. Use it for pounding out camels or rehoming your fleet; either way it more than pays for itself. What turns people off to KRC is neglecting to build it early enough and pairing it with Shakes to get that city maxed out.

400 to 1800 is about 100 turns, and for a maxed city that should be 10-15 shields per turn, so it brought in 1000 to 1500 shields in that time. Sounds like it was worth it.

	11-02-2004 11:18									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant KRC did lead to some level of frustration with Central City: several people expressed dispair at "wasting" it on caravan building since it was in the mid 30's. If Eng is early enough KRC is a good deal. 400 to 1800 is about 100 turns, and for a maxed city that should be 10-15 shields per turn, so it brought in 1000 to 1500 shields in that time. Sounds like it was worth it.

Yep, I think so too!!

Too bad it wasn't used to churn out Clads; but I suppose nobody wanted to go to war that early. Not that that would make anyone a wimp.

Monk

	11-02-2004 15:34									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk went over the top trying to emphasize what I still think is a valid point. While in Democracy, in a city with Shake's, a temple and a colosseum was built. Completely unnecessary use of shields and coin, I believe. Since then, every ruler has changed the Gov't; Fundy, Dem, Fundy again. It will no doubt be changed again. While they have value in Fundy, they will be a drag in Dem or Com. Monk

whilst the government being changed so much, and with obvious benifits whilst in fundy, perhaps a good idea that the white stuff not sold yet... i guess once you are pretty sure you are stable and not going to use fundy much, then is the time to sell the white gear .... just a thoguht

	13-02-2004 03:07									#207
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Yes, the Bloody one has a point -- I had my fingers on the ball for a few turns and could have sold the (junk) for a few coins...

But the bigger question remains -- is it my turn yet?

	13-02-2004 03:42									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Old n Slow But the bigger question remains -- is it my turn yet?

Sadly, NO.

The four most recent (and thus ineligible) players are -- in reverse order --
Grigor
Old n Slow
debeest
Rasputin

Anyone else may play.

Eligible posters in this thread -- SG [1], Elephant, Sparrowhawk, La Fayette, duke o' york, Zedd, Bloody Monk, and myself (busy with Dirty right now)...

SOMEBODY PLEASE JUMP IN!!!

	13-02-2004 04:00									#209
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We started with four players in a day.

Now it's been 4 days without any players.

	13-02-2004 04:36									#210
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit We started with four players in a day. Now it's been 4 days without any players.

Real Life can be a babe or a b*tch.

Monk