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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:33
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I believe we should start seriously working on our next strategic plan. The following is a draft I have written up, based on a number of threads which have sprung up regarding grand strategy in the past weeks. THIS IS ONLY A DRAFT, it is up to the team as a whole to discuss, debate, and change as it sees fit. This is your chance to speak out on how you think the destiny of Apolyton should unfold.
Reference Threads
- Apolyton - Naval Empire
- Consular Evil Plan
- Request for summary on our current Plan of Action
- Future Tech Planning
- Discussion about Rush buying City builds
- The Fresh Air: Apolyton Long Term Strategy Plan (AltSp)
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The Cornerstones Of Our Strategy In The ISDG – Part II
The Middle Game
1. Grand Objective
The successful conclusion of the war against GCA, coupled with our dominant position on this continent has made ultimate victory in this game an achievable goal even though we currently lag as the third empire, considerably less powerful than either CGN or GWT but with the potential to catch up. Our objective during the middle game is to emerge in a position to be at least the equal – but preferably the superior - of the current game leaders: CGN and GWT. This will enable us to determine the way in which our ultimate objective, victory, can be obtained. The middle game runs roughly until the early-middle industrial age upon which the advent of railroads and powerful defenders makes offensive combat, especially inter-continental invasions, extremely difficult to execute successfully. Thus, any military changes to the current status quo must necessarily be done during this timeframe in order to enable a reasonable opportunity for success. In conclusion, due to the uncertainty pertaining towards the method of our ultimate victory, it is of vital importance that we be ready to achieve it by any means necessarily and the only way to achieve this is by having economic supremacy.
2. Power through Economic Supremacy
The most likely of victories in this game will be either by a UN vote or a spaceship victory (this one being by far the most likely). A spaceship victory will rest completely in our ability to pre-build the components and launch before anyone else. Even a UN vote might come with a string attached: CGN’s vote in exchange for massive military aid and a significant defeat of GWT. Either way, our chances of victory rest on a strong economic base. This will be accomplished through various stages during the middle game:
The REXing Phase
Our empire currently finds itself in a REXing Phase in order to fill up as much free space as possible in our side of the continent and give us a higher city count than CGN and possibly GWT. This aspect also takes into account the relocation of our cores, with a Forbidden Palace being built in our old core and the capital “jumped” to the city of Apolyton Prime in the highly-productive south. Once we have settled the grand part of our unused land, and our two cores are up and running, we are ready to begin the next stage of our growth.
The Infrastructure and Growth Phase
Our core cities should be built up considerably with improvements which can benefit our science and economy, mainly universities and banks. Despite our close city spacing, these cities can achieve good enough size. Our southern cities, in particular, benefit greatly from fresh water and good grassland/hills combinations. Our major cities should have built universities and banks by the time of Industrialization in which building factories will be of utmost importance.
Science and Wonders
With CGN and GWT likely racing towards the Military Tradition beeline, Apolyton and CFC should concentrate on the far more productive top path of the medieval age tech tree. Immediate objectives should be Education and Banking, which enable us to build the last two remaining vital improvements of the medieval era. Another important tech can be Economics which could give us Adam Smith’s Trading Co., the only late-era wonder which is of some use to us. In the early Industrial era, our ripority should be to obtain Industrialization and the wonder than can help us have a tremendous boost in our manufacturing capacity: The Hoover Dam. Pre-builds for Theory of Evolution and Hoover Dam should definitely be planned for before the middle game is over.
Production Priorities
Current priorities are a mix of improvements and settlers, this will change once our REXing phase is over upon which improvements, notably Library/Universities and Marketplaces/Banks will be focus of our empire’s production. Happiness improvements should only be built in those cities slated for particularly large size. Military units should only be built when they do not interfere with infrastructure builds and mostly limited to mobile units like Knights or Cavalry although our productive costal cities would be wise to build naval units on a regular basis.
3. Continental Security
The only military threat to our security is a surprise attack by CFC. While it is unlikely that such an attack, at any point in the game, will result in the destruction of our empire, it can decisively interrupt our economic potential in favor of military construction, and thus hampering our efforts to obtain parity with the other two great nations on the other side of the continent. Because of this, war with CFC should be avoided at all costs, and all efforts maintained to keep them locked in the current alliance with us. This alliance must necessarily benefit us due to the technological and diplomatic cooperation that our two empires are undertaking. As long as this alliance is in place, there is no need nor should there be any planning or production towards an invasion of CFC. We also must take in account that a war with CFC even though the odds of losing are remote, can disturb our building so much that the possibilities of obtaining economic parity with GWT or CGN will be erased or be too late to enable us to win.
3. Composition of Military Forces
Our armed forces must be oriented towards the dual goal of possibly intervening in the other continent as well as a rapid defense in case of either an invasion by an offshore power or an invasion by CFC. It is no use to us to maintain a massive standing army which represents a vital opportunity cost in the building of infrastructure and other economic production. Our forces should be based upon fast moving mobile units (Knights, then Cavalry) providing for rapid reaction at any part of our continent as well as a sufficiently large deployable number of defensive units. The goals of this army are described in detail as follows:
Apolyton Expeditionary Force (AEF)
We must be able to field a small but powerful expeditionary force in order to have potential influence in the events arising on the other continent. This Force can be used either to support the armies of another nation in defense or counterattack as long as this is done in the territory of the assisted nation. (Apolyton troops should NEVER be used to assist in one nation’s offensive into the territory of another). Any offensive against the territory of another should be with the explicit purpose of being able to capture and defend in the long-term, a small foothold on the other continent.
Rapid Reaction Defensive Forces
At home our forces should be arranged as to be able to provide an effective counter-invasion force whether the threat is from off-shore or from CFC. They should be organized into a Northern and Southern Force with the bulk of the defending troops protecting the chokepoints while the mobile forces concentrated in both cores into a counterattack force. Should the need for an offshore invasion arise, our Expeditionary Force will be composed of the bulk of these mobile forces.
Naval Forces
Naval units can perform picket duty after the advent of Magnetism to alert in case of an offshore invasion, however, the main mission of our naval forces should be to be able to ferry as many troops as possible towards the other continent and to destroy or severely damage any naval invasion coming towards us. Regardless, a strong and well deployed navy will offer us the liberty of choosing when and where to strike.
4. Conditions on Offshore Deployment
Two very important conditions must exist before we commit to an offshore adventure in defense of any of the other two powers. The first is that there must exist a threat perceived as sufficiently grave that we may lose the game if we decide not to intervene. This can be a decisive military victory by either GWT or CGN although the threat from GWT is far greater due to their diplomatic frictions with us, as well as their use of GCA as an assistant minor power. The second condition, and no less important, is that the threat from CFC must be considered as sufficiently minor so that we can transport a sizeable force without fear of our homeland defenses being initially overwhelmed by a surprise CFC invasion. However, should the current status quo on the other continent prevail, it is likely that an intercontinental invasion will be unnecessary.
5. Getting the World to make us win
The diplomatic situation in the world greatly favors us. As long as a stalemate remains on the other continent, and as long as CGN and GWT devote a great part of their production on military spending, we have a clear coast for an uninterrupted span of peaceful building given the alliance with CFC which affords us a sense of security in the continent. Our diplomatic objective, therefore, must be to maintain the current balance of power among the other nations which we expand our own power base peacefully. Our greatest threat is a major shift in power in the other continent, giving one of the two giants an unequal advantage over the other. As said earlier, the greatest threat is GWT due to their use of GCA as a minor partner.
6. Timing
Current priority should be to obtain Education and Banking as soon as possible. After that, it will be a race towards the Industrial age but we must be sure to have built up a credible mobile attack force by then. Apolyton should be able to deploy at least 12-16 mobile units in assistance in the other continent as well as a smaller defensive contingent. This force should be ready sometime between the age of Magnetism and Industrialization which is the best window of opportunity for an intercontinental cavalry force to be deployed. Prebuilds for ToE and Hoover should also be carefully planned at the later parts of the middle game.
By the end of the middle game, Apolyton should have consolidated it’s position as an economic equal to CGN or GWT, although emerging as the dominant power among the three is not inconceivable if we follow our traditional mantra until the very end: Efficiency.
Last edited by E_T on 03-02-2004 at 05:53
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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Although, Technology superiority is desirable and one of the best indicatiors of Prosparity in this game, we should be cautious when it comes to researching things too fast, atleast at the earlier stage of this plan.
The reason, is that while we are busting our butts getting our economy in order, so that we are able to enjoy the fruits of our efforts, we also need to realize that our efforts are helping the other teams gets ahead faster. Having tech costs reduces (drastically in some cases) because the leader had made the main effort to do the initial reseach will allow someone, with nearly equil economy to benifit from coming from behind while having a lower reseach cost and higher cash flow. This allows them to rush buy things and get to the better position to go into the 3rd phase of the game with a stronger pace than the team that sweated out the other.
Another thing is, that being able to get lots of techs and different city builds in a really short time still doesn't mean that a city is ready to build such things. Take for instance, Education, Banking and Economics, giving us Universities, Banks and Smiths Trading. If we are still in REX mode or don't have the main essentials (Markets and Libs) built in our cities and are not ready to build the Wonder, then what was the point of getting the techs first (or as fast)?
Speeding headlong down the tech path can be desasterous for us, if we aren't able to take as full of an advantege of it. Currently, the teams that can do that are CGN and GWT. And dispite the possibility of a stalemate (something that is still to be decided, from the most recent reports), we don't need to let that team "ride our coattails to victory", while we are still struggling up to supremacy.
As before, in the Original AltSP, let's let caution be our watchword.
MoI E_T
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
@Trip
The closest distance between us and the continent is 4 tiles of ocean, that means that even caravels with the GL run the risk of sinking unless of course we send empty ones first and then use caravel chaining to get the troops across.
It'll be expensive. Very expensive and we will lose caravels. But if the cost of not doing it is a dead CGN it'll be worth it. By the time we GET astronomy, however, it should be more than evident if GWT will be capable of a decisive victory. |
Yes, we will lose Caravels in the process. We can send Lighthouse-less Caravels across first, and each one we get allows us to chain 3 units per turn. If we get, say, 5 over there, then that allows us 15 units a turn. That would have a huge impact on the war.
And ss you said, it will be worth it.
However, in order to have a sizable Caravel fleet, we will have to start building Galleys now which can be upgraded. And they're a lot cheaper than Knight upgrades.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by E_T
Although, Technology superiority is desirable and one of the best indicatiors of Prosparity in this game, we should be cautious when it comes to researching things too fast, atleast at the earlier stage of this plan.
The reason, is that while we are busting our butts getting our economy in order, so that we are able to enjoy the fruits of our efforts, we also need to realize that our efforts are helping the other teams gets ahead faster. Having tech costs reduces (drastically in some cases) because the leader had made the main effort to do the initial reseach will allow someone, with nearly equil economy to benifit from coming from behind while having a lower reseach cost and higher cash flow. This allows them to rush buy things and get to the better position to go into the 3rd phase of the game with a stronger pace than the team that sweated out the other.
Another thing is, that being able to get lots of techs and different city builds in a really short time still doesn't mean that a city is ready to build such things. Take for instance, Education, Banking and Economics, giving us Universities, Banks and Smiths Trading. If we are still in REX mode or don't have the main essentials (Markets and Libs) built in our cities and are not ready to build the Wonder, then what was the point of getting the techs first (or as fast)?
Speeding headlong down the tech path can be desasterous for us, if we aren't able to take as full of an advantege of it. Currently, the teams that can do that are CGN and GWT. And dispite the possibility of a stalemate (something that is still to be decided, from the most recent reports), we don't need to let that team "ride our coattails to victory", while we are still struggling up to supremacy.
As before, in the Original AltSP, let's let caution be our watchword.
MoI E_T |
For this reason (as well as not having infinite cash to do deficit research) I believe we should do Education and then Astronomy at 6 turns each, then slow things down quite a bit for Banking and Economics.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:33
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This is an excellent policy document. I'd like to color in a few details myself.
I agree with H_E and ET on tech. Our goal should be to become on par with our competators and to move at their pace, if possible. Getting ahead of them at this point is foolish as our nation is still building and growing and not really able to put to use the new techonolgoes and developments we're discovering. A faster world will only serve to propell our neighbors into the next age while we're still trying to catch up.
Some key techs for us will be Banking, Economics, and Navigation. Navigation, I believe, is going to be the biggest development ... and it's likely that we may lose the race to this tech. Once this tech is aquired then our shores will no longer be safe, and we'd better be finished with our REX phase and well into our naval building.
We only need to get Economics just before Adam Smith (prebuild) is ready.
I also would like to see us get our GA sometime around Adam Smith. If we are still behind on the tech race and wonder race at that point, our GA may be what helps us win the Wonder Race, and gives us a huge boost into the Hoover's Prebuild.
IMO, AltSp2 should be about Apolyton becoming equal to our competators, becoming fully seaworthy, and it should finish with our Golden Age!
--Togas
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:33
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Getting our Golden Age with the completion of Adam Smiths' would definately be a boost. However, we may get it if we decide to build the Great Lighthouse in Hispanica or Heart of Darkness before that, so something we should look at.
This said, I really wouldn't mind if we can work out the following:
Save up a bunch of money while working on universities in most cities and the completion of Adam Smiths' in Tripoli.
Then use the universities to get as close to Industrialization as we can before our Golden Age starts. We complete Adam Smiths', start our Golden Age, and all cities start to build FACTORIES during the early part of the GA. Then, having Factories+GA+WLTKD in as many cities as possible. We can use this massive production and research advantage to bee-line up the ToE-Hoover line and build those wonders in cities like Tripoli and Apolyton Prime with the use of our Golden Age, railroads, great terrain, and factories all in combination. Once Hoover's is built, this FURTHER multiplies the advantage for a time (until the Golden Age wears off, but by then we may have a permanent advantage).
We can then afford to use our superior economic strength to build a massive army and fleet force (up the Replaceable Parts bee-line and to Combustion), eventually augmenting it with air power at Flight and Advanced Flight and with mobility with Motorized Warfare.
What we DO with that force and how we play from that point would belong to the next SP, since much of those decisions will be affected by what is taking place in the rest of the world between now and then.
This SP should cover the period between now and the completion of our Golden Age, hopefully around the time we've started work on ToE or even Hoover's. Using our GA to get factories off the ground fast and coupling factory production with GA production would be an ENORMOUS boost, however. Perhaps that's a bit late for a golden age for some people, but I've at least found in SP games that's pretty d*** effective.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:33
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Now that I think about it, it's almost certain that we'll have our Golden Age long before we get to Industrialization... that said, it would certainly pay for us to bee-line to Industrialization and then the ToE beeline during our GA so that we can start factories (if possible) under GA production.
If we're going to be saving up cash while doing slow research up to the point where we get Economics and then try to finish Adam Smiths' first, we may even have enough money stored along with our GA science boost (and any unis built in that time) to bee-line to Industrialization and then the ToE line relatively quickly.
Another issue is prebuilds versus factory builds. I can see that the city working on the ToE would need to start its prebuild long before it had the option to build a factory. The city that would build Hoover's however... could it prebuil for a factory and then use the factory to build Hoovers?
Another EDIT:
What happens if someone else beats us to ToE? Can we still use the superior factory+GA production to beat them in shields stored on the Hoover prebuild so that when we do reach Electronics, we can finish Hoover's before they do or will their prebuild already have too many shields stored?
Last edited by Arnelos on 03-02-2004 at 10:20
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Dominae
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I disagree about the "intentionally slowing down our research" bit.
Being a tech leader means you can sell your techs to the other civs. It's always better to take another civ's Gold than to make your own by slowing down your tech pace. As the tech leader you can cut the other civs off if ever you need to, something which is not always affordable if you're sharing the research burden equally.
We can only keep our rising power secret from the other teams for so long. If they're good Civ3 players they'll have drawn the right conclusion by now. Selling techs to them will not set them against us. On the contrary, they will be more than happy to enjoy our services as they concentrate on matters closer to home. It would take a very strong Apolytonia indeed for CDG and GWT to sign an embargo against us.
Finally, a fast tech rate benefits us more than any other team in this game. We're essentially the only runner in a race for the Spaceship, until such time as GWT or CGN prevails on the other continent. CFC is just along for the ride.
Dominae
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Donegeal
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Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer. Founder of the Glory of War, Champions of Apolyton!
Jul 2002
time: 05:33
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Hmmm.. I was sitting here typing away about how I disagree with Dom about the tech situation and actually argued my way to his side (albiet for different reasons). What I feel it comes down to is "What is GWT goal in this war?". I fully feal that GWT is after two things: 1) The defeat of CGN to the point that they are made a non-contender (not nessicarily the destruction of them). And 2) Replace CGN with CGA.
"Why would they give all that land to CGA?"
Because, as it has been discussed in the PTWDG Bobian AAR, there is a limit to where more land becomes useful. If GWT were to win and keep the land, they would surly surpass this amount. Now if it were given to CGA and they were to build a FP to go along with a P, then there would be 4 cores with witch GWT/CGA could draw their power.
The problem with this is that it is going to take a VERY long time for them to defeat CGN. Even if for some reason there is a massive victory on GWT part (like CGA "Luck", which we should be watching for), it will still take a very long time for CGA to get up and running again. All of this is going to take three things from GWT/CGA. Money, Shields and Time.
It is during this period that we should strive to pull away from the other continent with regards to tech. And when I say the other continent, I mean CGN as well. Maybe help them until they/we get GP, but slap an embargo against them as well. We then push the tech rate (with CFC either doing a tech and swaping with compensation or them just giving us gold) to the max while the "other continent" pushes more and more money, time and shields into an ultimately futile war. By the time the war is over (with either a GWT/CGA victory and CGA replacement or a CGN victory (that would be a stalemate)), we should be several techs advanced over them (even more if we successfully build ToE).
Now, if we concentrate on our core cities for rushes, they should be suffeciently developed to make catch-up impossible (as all three will go through their GA's).
For all this to work, we need to work on one main thing: CFC.
1) We must get near complete trust of CFC. We should make generious deals with them and DO NOT try to squeeze them for all their worth.
Hmmm... I seem to have rambled for quiet some time. Do I stop making sense somewhere?
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:33
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Re: wonders to trigger our GA:
GW+G.Light
GW+Smith
GW+Magellan
G.Light + Hoover
Smith + Hoover
Magellan + Hoover
Since Hoover is likely to be heavily contested, I'd say that the Great Wall should be built. It satisfies our industrial requirement, it's only 200 shields, and it is unlikely that other teams (except perhaps CFC... oh dear, I wonder... Hmm, I'll come back to this) want it. Oh, and yeah, until metallurgy it will give us a defensive boost against CFC invasion, should it come to that. There are 3 commercial wonders out there for us to satisfy our other requirement.
Right, back to CFC. They are Ind/Mil. Their wonder combos for a GA are as follows:
GW all by its lonesome.
Sun Tzu + Hoover
Leos + Hoover
Univ Suffrage + Hoover
Right? Anybody think they are capable of building any of the combinations? So if we build the GW, are we effectively forcing CFC to use a Rider in combat to trigger their GA? If so, does this therefore increase the likelyhood of a CFC attack?
-Arrian
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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Arnelos is going to write up a Summery of this log. He'll get it posted soon, but he had some RL issues to take care of first. We had this chat while the FP celibration was taking place in the main chatroom.
quote:
[00:07] [E_T> hey
[00:07] [Arnelos> hey
[00:07] [E_T> Too bad MZ isn't here
[00:08] [E_T> I'm also waiting for Trip and Togas, but we can start doing things
[00:08] [Arnelos> ok
[00:09] [E_T> let me read your post in the AltSP2 thread first
[00:09] [Arnelos> ok
[00:09] [Arnelos> Togas posted as well
[00:10] [E_T> k
[00:14] [E_T> Alright, first off, I think that we might be moving a little bit too fast, tech wise
[00:14] [Arnelos> so you noted in the thread
[00:14] [E_T> especially in consideration of the need to start doing imporovement rushes
[00:15] [E_T> we are very well able to support a lower rate and still have cash on hand for things we need
[00:15] [E_T> we aren't in a race at this point
[00:16] [E_T> in all respects, we are doing very well on all fronts
[00:16] [Arnelos> true
[00:16] [E_T> but if we make this a race, as I noted in the thread, then we will ultimately fall behind
[00:17] [E_T> we have the huge advantage of 40 GPT from CFC, why waste that
[00:17] [E_T> the thing is, IF we show to the other teams what we are capable of now, with the help from CFC, then 2 things will happen
[00:18] [E_T> 1) they will expect us to keep up that rate
[00:18] [Arnelos> E_T, I think we're starting to move toward your logic on this one...
[00:18] [Arnelos> stay under the radar and complete our unis
[00:18] [E_T> 2) they will start to think that we are becoming a major threat and start dealing with us differently
[00:18] [Arnelos> yes
[00:21] [E_T> so, if we slow down a little, get things really set up and go from there, we will really be set
[00:21] * Trip has joined #isdgmanagement
[00:21] * E_T sets mode: +o Trip
[00:21] * MasterZen has joined #ISDGManagement
[00:21] [MasterZen> yo
[00:21] * E_T sets mode: +o MasterZen
[00:22] * E_T changes topic to 'Talking about shoes and ships and cabbages and kings'
[00:22] * Togas_trigonometry has joined #ISDGManagement
[00:22] [Togas_trigonometry> forgot the # sign 
[00:23] [MasterZen> so, debate on AltSp2 is looking good, I think in a few days we can pretty much have hammered out a fine document
[00:23] * Trip sets mode: +o Togas_trigonometry
[00:23] [E_T> So, trip was telling me that the consulate has come to the agreement that we should have a high research rate, for the next 2 techs and build lots a galleys to be upgraded
[00:23] [MasterZen> I am all for that, I said it since you told me the numbers on edu
[00:24] [MasterZen> I do not know what Arne has to say for it, or the MInisters, it has been only me and Trip discussing it so far
[00:24] [Togas_trigonometry> 
[00:24] [Arnelos> I was in favor of it earlier
[00:24] [Trip> I talked to Arne about it about a half hour ago
[00:24] [E_T> I'm of the opionion, that will everything that we are planning will require a lot more cash and time than the current rate will allow us
[00:24] [Arnelos> but E_T has a fine point here...
[00:24] [MasterZen> my point was there is no reason to maintain anything more than 100g as a reserve. Unless we are planning for rush buying stuff
[00:25] [MasterZen> IF we are planning to rush buy stuff then go ahead, but we should have the numbers required and keep that quantity as a minimum
[00:25] [E_T> the researve is just that, for emergencies
[00:25] [MasterZen> in other words I DON'T want to see us hoarding gold any more than we need
[00:25] [MasterZen> but what emergencies?
[00:25] [MasterZen> a CFC i nvasion?
[00:25] [MasterZen> a last minute rush to get troops to help CGN?
[00:26] [MasterZen> see, if there's a BIG emergency, we'll need A LOT of gold. So it's kinda moot IMHO to hoard too much since we'll likely 1) have too little in case we REALLY need it 2) have too much if we end up not needing it
[00:26] [E_T> and that will galleys upgraded to caravels (40 each) and rush buying improvemtns to help our economy blossum, we are set to reseach too fast
[00:27] [MasterZen> exactly, but we'll be planning for that
[00:27] [E_T> and time to build things, especially with rexing still in progress
[00:27] [MasterZen> those will not be emergencies
[00:27] [Trip> the biggest threat right now is CGN or GWT conquering their continent
[00:27] [Trip> 4that is the biggest threat, bigger than a few improvements being a few turns slower
[00:27] [E_T> An emengency mighe be a quick cash loan to CGN for their upgrades
[00:27] [MasterZen> in other words, we'll know that we need, say, 240g for caravels. then we keep 240g as a reserve, but not much more
[00:27] [Trip> I am of the opinion we need to do everything we possibly can to prevent that disastrous situation from happening
[00:28] [Trip> the only way to truly ensure it won't is if we can provide tangible support
[00:28] [Trip> which requires us to either A) have the Lighthouse or B) Caravels
[00:28] [Trip> obviously, we should not sacrifice everything to this end
[00:28] [Trip> but I am willing to sacrifice quite a bit
[00:28] [E_T> well, Trip, at this rate of research, have you estimated now soon we will have Astro?
[00:28] [Trip> as I've said time and time again, THAT is the only real threat of us losing this game, if we play everything as we are capable of
[00:29] [Trip> E_T: based on research costs, our current rate and future improvements, 13-14 turns
[00:29] [MasterZen> I don't like to be paranoid, and I honestly thing the chances of GWT crushing CGN are remote, SHOULD it happen, it will be utterly disastrous
[00:30] [Arnelos> 13-14 turns isn't so bad.... but that's enough time for GWT to make headway if they have something up their sleeves which would let them do so and if they got "lucky"
[00:30] [Trip> Arne: even if things go terribly wrong, CGN should be able to seal off the chokepoints until then
[00:30] [Trip> GWT is going 1 tile per turn
[00:30] [Arnelos> yes, let's hope so
[00:31] [E_T> 13 to 14 turns is NOT enough time to float a navy that we need
[00:31] [Trip> if GWT wins at Boston-New Castle, CGN can pillage its way back
[00:31] [MasterZen> until they unleash the Ansar...
[00:31] [Trip> we have 3 coastal cities capable of producing Galleys at a reasonable rate
[00:31] [MasterZen> but still, I do not imagine a smashing GWT victory without anything like a MASSIVE naval invasion
[00:31] [Trip> we also have 2 ones currently, which we should have back to Inc by the time we get Astronomy
[00:31] [Arnelos> Ansars running ahead of the rest of their army, outstripping catapult and pikeman support will be EXTREMELY vulnerable to knights
[00:32] [MasterZen> not running ahead, waiting behind
[00:32] [MasterZen> or unleashed by ship
[00:32] [MasterZen> granted, you'd need a lot of ships, but if I were GWT that's what I'd be aiming for
[00:32] [Trip> E_T: what if we, say, delayed the Library in HoD, did a Galley there, Hisp and then a couple 4-turn Galleys in Inc after the current Library build?
[00:32] [Trip> that would give us 6 Galleys
[00:32] * Togas_trigonometry is now known as Togas
[00:33] [E_T> not withstanding the CGN/GWT war outcome, our needs are here and now
[00:33] [E_T> IF GWT succeeds in crushing CGN, then we have to have our economy ready to really rock against them
[00:33] [MasterZen> our needs here and now can be for naught if GWT crushes
[00:33] [MasterZen> CGN
[00:33] [Trip> E_T: this is about PREVENTION
[00:33] [Trip> if we get moving fast enough, we can PREVENT that situation from happening
[00:33] [MasterZen> i'd say, PRO-ACTIVE PREVENTION
[00:34] [Trip> honestly, if GWT conquers CGN or vice-versa, I don't think we can win this game
[00:34] [Trip> without everything going towards an immense naval invasion with CFC 100% support
[00:34] [Trip> I don't think we can get everything together properly to do it right
[00:34] [E_T> well, the things that are wanted and the current capabilities, while in REX/Palacemove mode are not compatable
[00:34] [Trip> CFC is too much of a variable, and we'd need them as an extention of ourselves to win
[00:34] [MasterZen> then we need to make them compatible, or as close to it as possible
[00:34] [Arnelos> indeed
[00:34] [E_T> for one thing, how many vet/reg caravels do we want to have
[00:35] [Arnelos> getting CFC to accept a role of workign WITH us is absolutely critical
[00:35] [Trip> as I told you earlier, for the short-term, I'd like to see ~7
[00:35] [Trip> if we do 1 in HoD now, 1 in Hisp after the Settler, 2 in Inc after the Lib then that gives us 6 to work with
[00:35] [Arnelos> 7 wouldn't be bad, but is that just the transport force or does that include pickets?
[00:35] [Trip> and those would all be done in the next ~8 turns
[00:35] [E_T> well, as far as I can see it, to help make them compatable, as much as possible, is going to take a LOT of cash
[00:35] [MasterZen> probably just the transport force
[00:35] [Trip> Arne: Just the transport force, but we have more time to do pickets as well before a threat
[00:35] [MasterZen> Trip, there's a little problem with that:
[00:36] [E_T> cash that we are burning for fast research
[00:36] [MasterZen> since we won't actually be able to effecitively deploy them until the GL, they'd be wasting 1gpt each if we build them too soon
[00:36] [Trip> 240g
[00:36] [Trip> we should still have at least that by the time we finish Astro
[00:36] [Trip> MZ: we need Caravels OR GL Galleys
[00:36] [Arnelos> also, there's the question of WHERE they will cross
[00:37] [Trip> there is a 4-tile stretch of ocean we can chain across
[00:37] [MasterZen> what tech makes the GL obsolete?
[00:37] [Arnelos> where, the one to GWT's peninsula... not sure that's where we want to chain across...
[00:37] [Trip> east of Tripoli, towards CGN's city of Tampere
[00:37] [Arnelos> ok, that's better
[00:37] [Arnelos> east of Tripoli was where I was thinking as well...
[00:37] [Arnelos> that would be good
[00:37] [Togas> Gl obsolete with astronomy
[00:37] [Trip> with Caravels on each side, they can move 2 tiles inwards, move units between them, then move back to the sea tiles
[00:38] [E_T> right now, we only have 1 harbor and it's currently scheadualled to growth build on a galley after the Library build
[00:38] [Trip> E_T: can that be delayed?
[00:38] [E_T> I have another Harbor comeing in Hisp, but that will still take some time
[00:38] [Trip> E_T: you are correct in that we can't do everything at once... which means we have to make sacrifices of some sort
[00:38] [MasterZen> just a little reminder: caravels move 3 only, so we need the GL regardless
[00:39] [Arnelos> Trip - we're going to need additional caravels on the CGN/GWT side of the ocean divide to defend against GWT/GCA galley attacks, especially if GCA brings along any "lucky" galleys
[00:39] [E_T> thing is, I really don't have a good city to do the GL in, not until the palace is moved
[00:39] [Arnelos> MZ - caravels only move 3?
[00:39] [Trip> Arne: not early on... CGN has multiple pickets in that area
[00:39] [MasterZen> Arne, yes
[00:39] [Arnelos> well, ****
[00:40] [MasterZen> which is why we need the GL anyways or else we can't chain
[00:40] [Arnelos> oh, MZ, I'm waiting on a Parliament vote from you, btw 
[00:40] [MasterZen> yeah, writing the AltSp2 took my whole free time today, I'll get to that
[00:40] [E_T> because the ones in our current core, Hisp, HoD and BB are doing other things and all have to stay below a certain size when the palace is moved
[00:40] [Togas> how soon do we palace jump?
[00:41] [Trip> crap
[00:41] [E_T> at LEAST 20 turns
[00:41] [Togas> 
[00:41] [Trip> we have to scrap the plan
[00:41] [MasterZen> no, we need the GL to do it
[00:41] [Trip> well
[00:41] [Trip> Navigation
[00:42] [E_T> I'm going to start drawing Poly down soon, but I still have to examine the other settler build times for when to actually have it happen
[00:42] [Trip> actually, we don't have to scrap the plan entirely
[00:42] [Trip> we can slow it down
[00:42] [E_T> I want to have a certain number of cities built and settlers on the way before the palace is moved
[00:42] [Trip> in order for it to work we need Navigation
[00:43] [E_T> Also, I need to build courthouses in some of the cities, too
[00:43] [Trip> well
[00:43] [Trip> we can do Navigation in about 25 turns
[00:43] [Togas> we need to speed this thing up. the longer we sit in old palace mode, the longer our old core is crippled by this premove
[00:43] [E_T> and all of that takes time, another reason to slow things down a bit
[00:44] [Trip> E_T: how many boats do you estimate we could have in 25 turns?
[00:44] [E_T> the problem that your having trip, is not relating game time to real time
[00:44] [E_T> that 20 turns will take about 1 month to get played
[00:44] [Trip> I realize that
[00:44] [E_T> and I know you want a lot of this stuff yesterday
[00:45] [E_T> and your looking at things, like PoV pop growth when it doens't matte because of it's current corruption
[00:46] [E_T> and when the thing WILL matter, i.e. after the Palace moves, then they will already be set
[00:46] [Trip> how many boats do you estimate we could have in 25 turns?
[00:47] [E_T> look at the last 30 turns guys, we started the FP a long time ago, it seems, but it was only 27 turns game time
[00:47] [Arnelos> Trip - you know... if nothing else, we could always just send a fleet of caravels over there to serve as nothing but a boatshield for CGN, allowing them to build fewer ships and more land units
[00:47] [E_T> 25 turn, maybe 4, depends on several factors, like do we want them regular or vet?
[00:47] * Trip shrugs
[00:48] [Trip> Arne: we'd do them better by just giving them the gold we'd use to upgrade the boats :P
[00:48] [Arnelos> true
[00:48] [Trip> E_T: only 4 boats over 25 turns?
[00:48] [E_T> I'm not certain, thing is, most of my productive coastal cities are doing other things
[00:49] [Trip> if we're only going to have 4, we might as well not build any at all :P
[00:49] [E_T> BB is chruning out settlers now, Hips is going to be doing a harbor then galley, but then, needs to do a courthouse
[00:50] [E_T> I'n still seting up HoD for different WF configurations that are productive
[00:51] [Trip> well, we can revisit this in the future when we are closer to Navigation
[00:51] [E_T> Incensity will be doing 1 galley, then settler, then Courthouse
[00:51] [Trip> but I can say that if all we're going to do is 4 boats then we shouldn't bother
[00:51] [Arnelos> 4 boats would still be useful as pickets
[00:52] [MasterZen> but not mush else :S
[00:52] [Trip> but our ability to intervene on the other continent will be nill
[00:52] [Trip> which is what's really important
[00:52] [Trip> I don't see CGN or GWT coming over here for a while, even if they plan to...
[00:52] [E_T> Trip, I'm saying that in the time frame that your talking about, that what I can see, After that time, we can look at a lot of other things, because we will have done th rex and palace move
[00:53] [Trip> chances are the decisive point in the war will have been reached by then anyways
[00:53] [E_T> our ability to intervein has been nill from the start, we can only do what we can do, at this point in time
[00:53] [Trip> but if the opportunity presents itself we can revisit this
[00:53] [E_T> and we should NOT rush blindly, when we don't have the capabilities to do what is needed
[00:53] [Trip> E_T: yes, but the nill could be eliminated if we had 10 or 15 boats at the time we finish Navigation
[00:54] [Togas> I agree, we can't affect their war, we must work full bore to get our own REX project done
[00:54] [Arnelos> navigation would certainly change things...
[00:54] [Trip> though I know that 10-15 boats at that point in time would be more of an investment than it would be worth, probably
[00:54] [Trip> because the war will probably be determined by then
[00:55] [E_T> well, if we go streight for Nav, balls to the walls, we won;t even have almost anything, because we will still be getting over the palace move
[00:56] [Trip> that's another part of the problem
[00:56] [Trip> it's just quite sad
[00:56] [E_T> what is
[00:56] [Trip> if either GWT or CGN does win a major victory... then we lose
[00:56] [Arnelos> we may just have to pray they don't mess it all up... we build while they fight
[00:57] [E_T> we are doing as much as we can to insure them having a stalemate
[00:57] [Arnelos> if we can't intervene effectively, we might as well use every drop of time we have while they're spending shields to fight one another building our hearts out
[00:57] [Trip> trading techs and shouting support in bottles isn't much :P
[00:57] [E_T> we, inreality, at this point in time, or the very near future, do mush else
[00:57] [Trip> Lego had a tangible hand in their fate
[00:57] [E_T> and to think that we can is really being unrealistic
[00:58] * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_IDLE
[00:58] [Trip> well, at least we can save cash after we're done with Education :P
[00:58] [Arnelos_IDLE> Trip - and lego chose to help one side win a decisive victory...
[00:58] [Arnelos_IDLE>
[00:58] [Trip> that's their perogative
[00:58] [Trip> but they COULD choose
[00:58] [E_T> the thing is, THIS isn;t the PTWDG game, totally different situation
[00:58] [Trip> we don't even get the choice due to that stinkin ocean
[00:59] [E_T> some things are the same and some are so totally different, they are apples and oranges
[00:59] [E_T> we take what we can frm the one game and apply it to this one
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E_T
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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quote:
[01:00] [Trip> well
[01:00] [Trip> whatever the situation
[01:00] [E_T> and part of that is to help them with what methods that we can
[01:00] [Trip> the ability to have the ability to have a tangible effect on another continent's war is a huge advantage
[01:00] [Trip> lacking that will be a major cause of concern in the future for us
[01:00] [Trip> as Arne said, we just have to pray they do things right... for us
[01:00] [E_T> we have warned them, time and time again about GWT and what will likely happen
[01:01] [E_T> it's not OUR fault that they didn't listen
[01:01] [Arnelos_IDLE> but Trip is correct that whether it's our fault is irrelevant
[01:01] [Arnelos_IDLE> if they lose, we lose
[01:01] [E_T> But we don't need to bust our economy for them if they didn;t take the warning to heart
[01:01] [Trip> in a way, I'm more concerned about what CGN is capable of than GWT
[01:01] [Arnelos_IDLE> true
[01:02] [Trip> if CGN weathers the storm of GWT's first advance and GA, then CGN will be heading towards MT...
[01:02] [Trip> imagine the effect of 30 Sipahis
[01:02] [Arnelos_IDLE> could be terrible to behold
[01:02] [Trip> Ansar VS. Musket is a bit of a different situation than Siphai VS. Musket
[01:02] [E_T> and we then plan to do damage to CGN when that time is appropriate
[01:02] [Trip> even so
[01:02] [Arnelos_IDLE> Trip - we could always help make it Sipahi versus Rifle
[01:02] [Trip> there's only so much you can do to stop a big stack of high stat units on another continent :P
[01:03] [E_T> but the thing is, we NEED to keep the pace down, so that we can be fully ready to do whatever is needed, when the time IS right
[01:03] [Trip> well
[01:04] [Trip> if CGN does weather GWT and Siphais are on the horizon, us helping GWT get to Nationalism, as Arne pointed out, could be our saving grace
[01:04] [E_T> Togas & Trip, have we given CGN any timeline as to our completion of Education?
[01:04] [MasterZen> we need to consider that for the AltSp2
[01:04] [Trip> I told miccofl we may be doing it shortly after them, but we hadn't decided yet
[01:04] [MasterZen> I was actually going to put a section on "Flexibility" as to turning coat and helping GWT if necessary
[01:05] [Trip> getting Gunpowder is important too... knowing where the Saltpeter is and hooking it up helps us DIRECTLY
[01:05] [Trip> and CGN having Education doesn't
[01:05] [Trip> CGN is bee-lining for MT anyways
[01:05] [Trip> they need us for the rest of the upper half of the tech tree
[01:05] [Trip> CGN may have Sipahis, but GWT could have Riflemen and Factories
[01:05] [E_T> we will likely already have it connected up OR will be almost about to
[01:05] [Trip> if we are able to hold our cards
[01:05] [Trip> E_T: probably, but there could be some on a hill far away
[01:05] [Trip> to the SE, for example
[01:05] [Trip> or the far north
[01:06] [E_T> well, we will have it covered, no matter what, relatively soon
[01:07] [E_T> that isn't a concern of mine, IF we have any on our side of the contenent, we will have it available
[01:07] [MasterZen> I hate it when our fate is not entirely in our hands...
[01:07] [Arnelos_IDLE> btw... something else to consider.... scouting for islands
[01:07] [E_T> it never is, MZ
[01:07] [Trip> based on the tile count, I doubt there's any islands
[01:07] [Trip> but of course, there always could be
[01:07] [E_T> that's also the art of Diplomacy
[01:08] [Trip> but that waits for Navigation
[01:08] [MasterZen> well not so much as in this case. I mean, hell, all this work for CGN or GWT getting crushed... :S
[01:08] [Arnelos_IDLE> we're going to need some boats around to do that
[01:08] [Trip> I don't recommend trying to stop a stack of Sipahis with a pen 
[01:08] [MasterZen> btw
[01:08] [Arnelos_IDLE> an then we're going to want to claim those islands if they have critical resources
[01:08] [MasterZen> let's imagine worst case sceanrio:
[01:08] [E_T> there IS that sea channel to the north
[01:08] [Trip> CGN has made it plainly clear they are out to destroy GWT with their Sipahis
[01:08] [MasterZen> CGN kicks ass and destroyes GWT
[01:08] [Trip> likewise with GWT and their Ansar
[01:08] [MasterZen> GWT will likely do a massive demolition operation on their way back
[01:09] [MasterZen> will CGN have time to re-build and take advantage of all that land? tsk tsk
[01:09] [E_T> I'm thinking that there is something to our North that we can use to get to the other contenent without too much of a problem
[01:09] [MasterZen> plus, if CGN crushes GWT, we can win the UN vote
[01:09] [MasterZen> 2 vs 1
[01:09] [Trip> will CFC cooperate?
[01:09] [MasterZen> they better
[01:09] [Trip> if CFC offers CGN a deal where they get rid of us, then things could swap for us
[01:09] [MasterZen> because we likely won't be able to win anyhting else against such a monster
[01:10] [Trip> CFC won't want to be our lapdogs until the end of the game
[01:10] [Trip> as it stands now, they have no chance of breaking out of that position
[01:10] [MasterZen> if you were CFC, who would you support:
[01:10] [Trip> if one team gets dominant on the other side, they could court them, or vice versa
[01:10] [MasterZen> an offshore power who has not really helped you or your neighbor which has always been nice and helped you even in your time of need?
[01:10] [MasterZen> we have given CFC not a single reason to be against us
[01:11] [Trip> CFC wants to win
[01:11] [E_T> I would bide my time, help keep afloat and then plan with the evenual winner in the GWT/CGN conflict to help take us out
[01:11] [Trip> just as we wanted to win when we decided to take out GCA, a team that had always been cooperative and cordial with us
[01:11] [MasterZen> but if you couldn't win, who would you rather have win, us or CGN?
[01:11] [E_T> If I was on the CFC team
[01:11] [Trip> MZ: but that's the problem... they MIGHT have a chance to win
[01:11] [Trip> at least in their eyes
[01:11] [Trip> if they can get rid of their big brother and acquire hegemony on this continent
[01:12] [Trip> which is why one team becoming dominant over there is such a grave security threat
[01:12] [Trip> not only do they have a greater chance of winning, but the balance of power is so disrupted that CFC may depart our alliance if they see an opportunity to side with someone against us
[01:12] [MasterZen> I doubt they can ever imagine winning against us without CGN support, and if that happens CGN wins anyway
[01:12] [Trip> right now, CFC has no one to court for that purpose
[01:12] [Trip> while CGN and GWT both have bigger fish to fry
[01:12] [E_T> If let;s say, that teh CGN.GWT war does stalemate, we still have to invade to fully take out GCA and damage GWT;s Cultureal advanteage
[01:13] [E_T> so, the best time would be when we do that
[01:13] [Trip> anyways
[01:13] [Trip> since the Caravel gambit isn't going to work as I/we thought it could
[01:14] [Trip> 4we have to decide what to research after Education, and at what rate
[01:14] [Trip> the reason I wanted to research fast was for the purpose of getting Caravels reading for the inter-continental chaining
[01:14] [Trip> but that's not feasible until Navigation
[01:14] [Trip> do we do Banking instead?
[01:14] [MasterZen> 4YES
[01:14] [E_T> the main thing is, IF we go Too fast, we will be at Rifles and Railroads before we know it and a period before we are ready to launch any type of invasion against the other contenent
[01:14] [Trip> or still do Astro, but slower?
[01:14] [MasterZen> same thing really
[01:14] [Trip> E_T: we control the upper side of tech tree
[01:14] [MasterZen> we can't start building banks anytime soon anyway
[01:15] [Trip> among them, Banking, Astro, Physics, Magnetism, etc.
[01:15] [Trip> MZ: right
[01:15] [E_T> we can use them as prebuilds, if anything
[01:15] [Trip> which is why I think we should do Astro, then Banking
[01:15] [Trip> just for that purpose
[01:15] [Togas> BANKING
[01:15] [Trip> we still have Universities to build too
[01:15] [Trip> don't forget that
[01:15] [Trip> it's not as though we won't have anything to build if we don't do Banking next
[01:15] [Trip> those Unis are expensive mothers
[01:16] [E_T> 200 sheild, at this point, almost wonders in their own right
[01:16] [Trip> and Cathedrals too, for cities we plan on getting really big
[01:16] [Arnelos_IDLE> I'm leaning to doing astro slower
[01:16] [Trip> Arne: same with me
[01:16] [MasterZen> ditto
[01:16] [Arnelos_IDLE> w/o the caravel gambit, I agree with E_T's reasoning
[01:16] [Togas> true, if we can't keep up the build rate with our tech rate, slow the tech rate a bit
[01:16] [Trip> reasoning on what?
[01:16] [Arnelos_IDLE> though there is one exception... giving CFC Banking so they can build banks to help us has some merit
[01:16] [E_T> temples, caths, markets, libs and Aquas are the first priorities
[01:17] [E_T> well, not caths yet
[01:17] [Trip> CFC doesn't even have friggin Markets yet ARne
[01:17] [MasterZen> good point Arne
[01:17] [MasterZen> but they better start on them
[01:17] [Togas> they'll have markets by the time we have edu and banking
[01:17] [Trip> E_T: right, which is why Banks aren't really necessary yet
[01:17] [Trip> whereas Caravels could be at least slightly useful :P
[01:17] [Arnelos_IDLE> true
[01:17] [Arnelos_IDLE> just a thought
[01:17] [Trip> Togas: that's only like 15-18 turns away
[01:17] [Trip> CFC's SPT counts are like... 5 :P
[01:17] [Trip> and they're also building Settlers like us
[01:18] [Trip> two cities dropped 2 pop this turn
[01:18] [E_T> the thing with the techs, again, we have to keep, atleast GWT from riding our coattails too much
[01:18] [Togas> if they're also in REX mode ... forget it
[01:18] [Trip> E_T: yes, but I doubt they'd be chomping at the bit for Banks, of all things
[01:19] [E_T> banks least to eco, which gives you Smiths and that is a very valuble wonder
[01:19] [Trip> 4Quickpoll: which tech do you favor doing after Education? 3A) BANKING or 12ASTRONOMY?
[01:19] [Trip> B, I mean
[01:19] [Trip> forgot the B :P
[01:19] [Trip> E_T: we gots us a LOOOOOOONG ways before Smith is done
[01:19] [Togas> I need to head out guys
[01:19] [Togas> bb tomorrow night
[01:19] [MasterZen> cya Togas
[01:19] [E_T> how about Music theory??? 
[01:19] [Trip> I vote B
[01:20] [Trip> :P
[01:20] * Togas has quit IRC (Quit: )
[01:20] * Trip whips MasterZen a little with a George Foreman grill
[01:20] [MasterZen> 4MUSIC THEORY
[01:20] * Trip whips Arnelos_IDLE a little with a George Foreman grill
[01:20] [Arnelos_IDLE> yeah, I see it
[01:20] [E_T> a
[01:20] [MasterZen> hmm...
[01:20] [Arnelos_IDLE> E_T, give an argument for music theory if you have one to make
[01:20] [Arnelos_IDLE> I doubt we want it
[01:20] [MasterZen> it was a joke :P
[01:21] [MasterZen> although JS Bach's isn't a bad wonder
[01:21] [Arnelos_IDLE> just making sure...
[01:21] [Arnelos_IDLE> I'd rather save for Smiths
[01:21] [MasterZen> me too
[01:21] [Trip> me tree
[01:21] [Arnelos_IDLE> I really don't care Banking -v- Astronomy
[01:21] [Arnelos_IDLE> it's unlikely to matter
[01:21] [E_T> I was joking, but iF GWT was going for Astro, also, why let them ride our coattails if we get there first
[01:21] [MasterZen> to be honest, I am mixed on both techs. I thing there are good arguments for both
[01:21] [Trip> well, we need to decide :P
[01:21] [Trip> actually....
[01:21] [Trip> now that I think of it...
[01:21] [Arnelos_IDLE> GWT is almost CERTAINLY bee-lining for MT
[01:22] [Arnelos_IDLE> if they aren't, they're going to get crushed
[01:22] [MasterZen> which makes them repeating techs oh so much more beneficial to us
[01:22] [Trip> 4CGN and GWT are able to do big infrastructure builds... right? If we cheapen techs like BANKING for them, that will open up those improvements to them earlier
[01:22] [E_T> we can't say that until we see them with Invertion
[01:22] [Trip> you can tell by CGN's culture and GPT they have probably almost every improvement in every city
[01:22] [Trip> the sooner they get Banking the sooner they can BUILD Banks
[01:23] [Arnelos_IDLE> while this is true, Trip, they're not likely to be builing banks anytime soon
[01:23] [Arnelos_IDLE> *building
[01:23] [E_T> well, how about Music, banking, astro then eco
[01:23] [Trip> hey
[01:23] [Trip> you never know
[01:23] [Trip> Arhus is at 20 SPT
[01:23] [Arnelos_IDLE> why the hell do we want Music Theory?
[01:23] [Trip> 5 GWT cities are at least 20 SPT
[01:23] [Arnelos_IDLE> are we going to build Bachs?
[01:23] [Trip> a couple 30 SPT
[01:23] [Arnelos_IDLE> if not, let GWT reserach it
[01:23] [E_T> we might,
[01:23] [Arnelos_IDLE> it's beakers down a hole, in my opinion
[01:23] [Trip> Bachs would be nice
[01:23] [E_T> consider this, what luxes do we have
[01:24] [Trip> unfortunately, we don't have many cities to build wonders in :P
[01:24] [E_T> who has the other 4
[01:24] [Trip> we have a bunch of cruddy, low pop, low SPT, unimproved cities lying around
[01:24] [E_T> AP will be a wonder nightmare, when I get it set up
[01:24] [Trip> we can do MT any time
[01:24] [Trip> E_T: yes, 20 SPT or so, but that's 20 turns away
[01:24] [Trip> we need to decide what to research after our 5-turn project is done
[01:25] [Arnelos_IDLE> thing is... GWT can only afford to head down one tech branch... all teams other than GCA have them embargoed
[01:25] [Arnelos_IDLE> and, if they have to pick a branch, they're going to pick MT
[01:26] [E_T> back to the Luxes, now, we can't trade until Nav AND depending on the war outcome, so the ones that help us with the happienss help us to win economically
[01:26] [Trip> the question we have to ask is this: 4What gives us the greatest tangible benefit IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE?
[01:26] [E_T> brb
[01:26] [Trip> that should determine what we research next after Edu
[01:26] [Trip> MT won't, and we can research that any time
[01:26] [Trip> we won't be building Banks
[01:26] [Trip> though we MAY build Caravels in the near future
[01:27] [Trip> which is why I think we should do Astro
[01:27] [Trip> it opens up that immediate tangible possibility
[01:27] [MasterZen> agreed
[01:27] [Trip> neither Banking nor MT give an immediate benfit... it's not even POSSIBLE
[01:27] [Trip> Banks are too expensive, Bachs is eons away
[01:27] [Trip> Caravels... possible
[01:27] [E_T> well, banking is the best way to go, next, then astro
[01:28] [Trip> why is Banking best to go now?
[01:28] [E_T> and by that time, we should have enough galleys to upgrade AND have the Gl and GA to work off of
[01:28] [Trip> where/how would we build the Lighthouse by then?
[01:28] [E_T> get some wonders under our belt and go from there
[01:29] [Trip> that path there is, maybe, 25 turns if we go slowly
[01:29] [Trip> Palace jump isn't even for another 20
[01:29] [E_T> well, then, we can have the galley built and be working on the GL
[01:29] [Trip> didn't MZ say that Astro made the GL obsolete? :P
[01:30] [E_T> Mag
[01:30] [MasterZen> I never said that, I was asking
[01:30] [Trip> ahh
[01:30] [Trip> sorry
[01:30] [MasterZen> which is why I still said that the GL would work
[01:30] [Trip> why not just use Smith + Great Wall?
[01:30] [MasterZen> thought it would take time before our caravels would move 4
[01:30] [Trip> GL would be too early, wouldn't it?
[01:31] [E_T> thing with smiths is that we have a better chance of getting GL (cheaper for one) and use the GA to build Smiths
[01:31] [E_T> and cop
[01:31] [E_T> and other wonders
[01:31] [Trip> where would we build it?
[01:31] [E_T> and Univercisiets and Banks
[01:32] [Arnelos_IDLE> yes
[01:32] [Arnelos_IDLE> that would help
[01:32] [Trip> but what do we do with Tripoli then?
[01:32] [Arnelos_IDLE> use GA to build Smiths and prebuild for ToE and factories
[01:32] [Arnelos_IDLE> (after building unis and banks)
[01:32] [E_T> and then, after the GA, we will be set, because our GA was a builders GA, not a war GA
[01:32] [Arnelos_IDLE> precisely
[01:33] * Arnelos_IDLE is now known as Arnelos
[01:33] [E_T> I have to go have a smoke, BRB
[01:33] [Trip> but what do we do with Tripoli?
[01:33] [Trip> :P
[01:34] [Trip> and where do we build the GL?
[01:34] [Arnelos> Tripoli continues the Smiths prebuild
[01:34] [Arnelos> right
[01:34] [E_T> Tripoli has to finish GW first
[01:34] [Arnelos> ah
[01:34] [Arnelos> there's a plan
[01:34] [Trip> what about GL?
[01:35] [E_T> and I think we should use it for other builds after, because it needs to grow and get into a position to help economocally
[01:36] [E_T> GL, I'm still looking at, but likely HoD or River (if it's better after teh Palace move)
[01:36] [Trip> what about Inc?
[01:37] * MasterZen has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[01:37] [E_T> the thing is, with HoD having a library (or any other city) we can use uni as a large sheild storage for some things
[01:38] [E_T> Dn't know how productive Inc will be after the palace move, even with a court
[01:38] [Trip> hmmm
[01:38] [Trip> well, River only has 2 hills in its radius
[01:38] [E_T> it will be more of a trade center than a production center
[01:38] [Arnelos> MZ can't get in here... password again?
[01:38] [Trip> HoD could be good though, with some irrigated grass, iron, couple mountains, one hill
[01:38] [E_T> plans
[01:39] * MasterZen has joined #ISDGManagement
[01:39] [E_T> I'm sending workers to the mountains soon
[01:39] [MasterZen> ah, I was writing "plan"
[01:39] [Arnelos> there we go
[01:39] * Arnelos sets mode: +o MasterZen
[01:40] [E_T> especially with that Iron mountain mined
[01:40] [Trip> how productive WILL the south be right after the Palace jump?
[01:40] * E_T is now known as E_T_outside_smoking
[01:40] [Arnelos> btw... who posted the Turn 157 report, Trip or MZ? (I'm not on poly right now)
[01:40] [MasterZen> me
[01:41] [Trip> I did
[01:41] [Arnelos> lol
[01:41] [MasterZen>
[01:41] [Trip> :P
[01:41] [MasterZen> it was Trip
[01:41] [Arnelos> ok
[01:41] [MasterZen> just messing with Trip's mind
[01:41] [Trip> :P
[01:41] [Trip> I do think that finishing the Wall in Tripoli is probably a good idea
[01:42] [Trip> too bad the walls go bad so early
[01:42] [Trip> though the help against barbs will be cool
[01:42] [Trip> it'll simplify our barb farming
[01:42] [Trip> 2 turns until it finishes
[01:43] [MasterZen> mañana lo hago
[01:43] [MasterZen> err... wrong window
[01:43] [Trip> o
[01:43] [Trip> o_O
[01:43] [Trip> NO HABLA!
[01:44] [MasterZen> SI HABLA!
[01:44] [Trip> NO HABLE ESPAN(squiggly)OL!
[01:44] [Trip> a
[01:44] [MasterZen> lol @ squiggly
[01:45] [Trip>
[01:45] [MasterZen> it's called the eñe
[01:45] [Trip> so, uh
[01:45] [Trip> what do we do in BFC now?
[01:45] [MasterZen> rhymes with KFC
[01:45] [Trip> if we do the palace jump in 20 turns
[01:46] [Trip> the most efficient things to do would be to build an Aquaduct and a Courthouse
[01:46] [Trip> if we build a Uni, it will take the entire 20 turns...
[01:46] [Trip> Aqua + CH will be 18
[01:46] [Trip> or 20+ if we start having it grow again
[01:46] [Trip> so we could time it better with the Palace jump
[01:46] * Arnelos is now known as Arnelos_BUSY
[01:46] [Trip> we could do CH, then Aqua, then Granary
[01:47] [Trip> so that it can start growing at the end of the Aqua, finish the Granary before the box fills to 7
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MoI E_T
Last edited by E_T on 04-02-2004 at 06:36
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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Last part
quote:
[01:51] * E_T has joined #ISDGManagement
[01:52] [Trip> to help growth we could irrigate over BFC WF 4 and 5
[01:53] [Trip> E_T: did you see that last stuff?
[01:53] * E_T_outside_smoking sets mode: +o E_T
[01:53] [E_T_outside_smoking> just got back, hold on
[01:53] [Trip> okay
[01:53] [Trip> just going over the possible builds in BFC
[01:54] [Trip> BFC could be a huge wonder city too
[01:54] [Trip> 7 hills in its radius
[01:55] [Trip> it can work 4 hills if the 2 grass in its radius are irrigated
[01:55] [E_T_outside_smoking> I'm going to be planning the setup of irrigation/mines for growth and production for greater than size 6 soon, and it will take some planning to do
[01:56] [Trip> what about improvement builds?
[01:56] [Trip> we're currently doing a CH at 7 turns, but if we switch to a Uni we won't be able to get a CH done before the Palace jump
[01:56] [Trip> I was thinking we could do an Aqua, CH then perhaps a Granary
[01:56] [E_T_outside_smoking> but it wait just a bit longer, as we are still in the REX phase and not in the after Palace growth phase
[01:56] [Trip> the Aqua and CH would be done about the time of the Palace Jump, so the Granary was just a suggestion to assist in post-Aqua growth
[01:57] [E_T_outside_smoking> the thing is, that Granary can be building while its in size 7, as it will have to refill anyways
[01:58] [Trip> right
[01:58] [E_T_outside_smoking> let me transfer to the other computer fully, hold on
[01:58] * E_T_outside_smoking has left #ISDGManagement
[01:58] [Trip> which is why I suggested the Granary last... CH + Aqua first... that's 18 turns at 10 SPT
[01:58] [Trip> we could then turn down SPT and do a Granary while it goes from 7 on up
[01:58] [E_T> k
[01:59] [E_T> Arnie, can I get you to post a summery of this discussion, in the AltSP2 thread, and I'll try to post a log of it later?
[02:00] [Arnelos_BUSY> argh
[02:00] [Arnelos_BUSY> I haven't even been in here
[02:00] [Arnelos_BUSY> but I can skim through and post something later
[02:00] [E_T> hey, It's our duty to keep our team members infored, especially if we want them to get more involded
[02:00] [Arnelos_BUSY> I'll make a log and go through and make a summary for the thread probably tomorrow morning
[02:01] [Arnelos_BUSY> oh, don't get me wrong... I'll do it
[02:01] [Arnelos_BUSY> I'm just groaning
[02:01] [E_T> I know, it's a lot of work
[02:01] [Arnelos_BUSY> actually, I've been working on my re-election thread the past half hour
[02:01] [E_T> we really need someone to act as a secretary to do these things
[02:02] [Arnelos_BUSY> I'll do it, just might not get done tonight
[02:02] [E_T> or if anything, to sit on MZ's lap
[02:02] [Arnelos_BUSY> you can do that job, if MZ will let you
[02:02] [MasterZen> you'd like that wouldn't you :P :P
[02:02] [E_T> or play with Trip's spiked hair....
[02:02] [MasterZen> I can do that early tomorrow
[02:02] [E_T> Hey, I'm too busy for that, sorry....
[02:02] [Trip> o_O
[02:02] [Trip> [00:03] [E_T> or play with Trip's spiked hair....
[02:02] [Trip> [00:04] [MasterZen> I can do that early tomorrow
[02:02] [MasterZen> I have nothing to do tomorrow until possibly the afternoon
[02:02] [MasterZen> no, not THAT :P
[02:03] [Arnelos_BUSY> there, re-election post done... I'll hold on to that until probably tomorrow
[02:03] [E_T> I, on the other hand, have to do things to my computer, like get my New HD installed and files copied over
[02:04] [E_T> Plus, I have a new Broadband router that I have to get installed and set up
[02:04] [Trip> what kind of router is it?
[02:05] [Trip> I hope you didn't buy a linksys wireless router
[02:05] [Trip> those things like to drop your connection and you have to reset them
[02:05] [Trip> every... couple... friggin... hours...
[02:05] [MasterZen> sounds like my connection...
[02:05] [E_T> I have to change my Internet gateway computer and my partners shared computer over to both using the router
[02:06] [E_T> Wireless, I don't want someone tapping into my connection
[02:06] [E_T> no, all cables
[02:06] [Trip> you can secure it
[02:06] [Arnelos_BUSY> copying this thread into a log for later summary now...
[02:07] [E_T> I don;t care, I want security and no problem access....
[02:11] [Arnelos_BUSY> done
[02:11] [Arnelos_BUSY> ok, I'll write the summary later
[02:11] [Arnelos_BUSY> taking off for a bit
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:33
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Executive Chat Summary:
NOTE: This summary was a pain to put together. I should really look into hiring a secretary.
Technology Progress
E_T: We have no need to race ahead in tech. We need to slow things down so that we have time to build the improvements and such at the tech level we're at rather than racing ahead. By researcing ahead of our ability to build what we've researched, we only serve to make those techs easier to obtain by our rivals and for them to continue to out-develop us.
E_T: Also, as we research ahead, the other civs will realize just how much of a threat we are becoming.
Cash Reserve
MZ: We have no need for a reserve larger than 100g unless we are planning to rush buy stuff.
E_T: We need a larger reserve for emergencies.
MZ: WHAT emergencies? A CFC invasion? A last-minute cash rush to CGN? If there's really any huge emergency, we're not going to have enough money to cover it completely with cash anyhow. We're better off spending the money to develop our economy, research tech, and make us stronger now so that we're better able to face such emergencies later without using gobs of cash.
Helping CGN
Trip: The the largest threat truly capable of stopping us from winning the game and the one we should most worry about is CGN or GWT getting killed off by the other. We need to do EVERYTHING we can to prevent that... we should be willing to sacrifice in order to prevent that. Because if we sit on our hands and let it happen, we're going to lose the game no matter how good we do things here on our continent.
Trip: We are 13-14 turns from Astronomy, at which point we can use caravels or galleys to ferry troops across a 4-5 ocean tile straight between our continent east of Tripoli and CGN.
E_T: 13-14 turns is NOT going to be enough time to float the navy we will need. We are in REX and we're in the process of prepairing for the palace swap. There just aren't going to be that many galleys completed between now and then.
***discussion about possible naval builds...***
E_T: If GWT succeeds in crushing CGN, then we have our economy ready to really rock against them
MZ: Our nees here and now are for naught if GWT crushes CGN
Trip: E_T, this is about PREVENTION - if we move fast enough, we can PREVENT that situation from happening.
E_T: well, the things that are wanted and the current capabilities, while in REX/Palacemove mode are not compatable
.............
Trip: We need about 7 caravels to transfer the troops. We'll need to save 240 gold for the upgrades from galleys,
Arnelos: If we built the Great Lighthouse, that would provide the same benefit, but +1 ship movement.
MZ: Reminder... caravels only move 3, we'd need the Great Lighthouse even if we had caravels
E_T: Thing is, I really don't have a good city to do the GL in, not until the palace is moved... all cities in the core will be dropping population down low so that the palace moves to the AP area... if we're going to build a wonder, that messes up the entire palace move. It's going to be AT LEAST 20 turns.
Trip: we have to scrap the plan Well, we can do it when we get Navigation. So about another 25 turns.
Trip: How many boats can we have in 25 turns?
E_T: I have about 4 planned
Trip: only 4?
E_T: I'm not certain, thing is, most of my productive coastal cities are doing other things.
Arnelos: 4 boats would still be useful as pickets, but not much else.
Arnelos: If we can't realistically affect their war, we might as well work full bore to REX like mad over here and build our hearts out. Concerning their war, we pray. That said, Navigation could change things, even if we only have a few boats.
****copious discussion of how screwed we are if CGN loses to GWT.... blah, blah, blah****
Scouting with Navigation and Island Grabbing
Arnelos: btw... something else to consider.... scouting for islands
Arnelos: we're going to need some boats around to do that and then we're going to want to claim those islands if they have critical resources
Trip: based on the tile count, I doubt there's any islands.... but that waits for Navigation
CFC
Trip: CFC is too much of a variable, and we'd need them as an extention of ourselves to win (if CGN or GWT wins on their continent)
Arnelos: getting CFC to accept a role of workign WITH us is absolutely critical
Trip: CFC isn't going to want to be our lapdogs until the end of the game.
MZ: We have not given CFC a single reason to be against us.
Trip: CFC still wants to win.
MZ: I doubt they can imagine winning against us without CGN support and if that scenario develops while CGN is the dominant power on the other continent, all it means is that CFC is letting CGN win.
What To Research After Education
Trip: Astronomy, then Banking. We still have univesrities to build. It's not like we have nothing to build if we don't do banking next.
Togas: BANKING
Arnelos: Astronomy
Master Zen: Astronomy
Arnelos: One exception, though... reseraching banking next so that we can have CFC build some banks and give us more money.
Trip: CFC doesn't even have markets yet.
MZ: Good point Arne
MZ: Trip, they better start on them.
Togas: CFC will have markets by the time we have edu and banking.
Trip: Togas, that's only 15-18 turns away... CFC's SPT count is like... 5 :P They're also REXing right now, like us.
E_T: My main concern with techs is that we keeep GWT from riding our coattails too much.
Arnelos: GWT isn't going up the same research path. GWT has to know that CGN is bee-lining for Military Tradition. If GWT does NOT bee-line for Military Tradition as well, GWT knows they will get overrun as soon as CGN gets it. GCA will be doing 40-turn reserach. GWT is not going to be riding our coattails... we probably have the upper half of the tech tree to ourselves for a while.
Trip: We should research Astronomy... shouldn't cheapen Banking for CGN/GWT. They can actually BUILD Banks.
Arnelos: CGN and GWT aren't going to be researching Banking... it isn't going to matter for a long time. Not only that, but they're in the middle of a war... same problem, they do no have infinite resources... if they're building units, that's shields which won't be building banks. If their reseraching Gunpowder->Chemisty->Metallurgy->Military Tradition, they aren't reasearching Astronomy or Education. I'm failing to see the problem here.
Trip: We should research the tech that gives us the greatest tangible benefit in the immediate future. Astronomy does that.
We never did resolve which tech to research. That's best, since the forum is the place to discuss it anyhow with the entire team.
Wonders and Our Golden Age
* Decision to switch Tripoli to The Great Wall. We can then build Adam Smiths' (or the Great Lighthouse) to get our Golden Age.
............
E_T: AP is going to be a wonder powerhouse.
Arnelos: That would help. We could build the GL, then use the GA to help build Adam Smiths' and the prebuild for ToE and some factories (cities to eventually build Hoover's and other stuff, like more UNITS).
E_T: We want a builder's GA, not a war GA.
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03-02-2004 04:23
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