19-02-2004 11:03									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

As a matter of fact, since we're starting to go around in circles there's no since in further arguing any points on this debate. You've made some good arguments and I argued valid points against all of them.

Case closed.

Now let's shake hands on it.

	19-02-2004 11:05									#62
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You live in a world surrounded by white, padded walls, Mr. Nice Guy...

	19-02-2004 11:07									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: You live in a world surrounded by white, padded walls, Mr. Nice Guy...

Not necessarily.

He also might just be stupid. Or too proud to admit that he's wrong.

	19-02-2004 11:07									#64
	Inflate your Upload Space

Read edit.

	19-02-2004 11:08									#65
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by VJ Not necessarily. He also might just be stupid. Or too proud to admit that he's wrong.

In most debates, there is usually never a clear winner, so get over it.

	19-02-2004 11:09									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy In most debates, there is usually never a clear winner, so get over it.

This must be one of the blatant exceptions, then.

	19-02-2004 11:11									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher This must be one of the blatant exceptions, then.

I find it a sad fact that a person on one of side of the debate would say such a thing, while one on the other side is willing to be impartial.

Be .

	19-02-2004 11:14									#68
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy I find it a sad fact that a person on one of side of the debate would say such a thing, while one on the other side is willing to be impartial. Be .

You have no choice but to try to play it cool.

"Impartial"?

	19-02-2004 11:16									#69
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Asher You have no choice but to try to play it cool. "Impartial"?

See.

	19-02-2004 11:17									#70
	Tired of ads?

I see, and I admit that I am rubbing it in.

	19-02-2004 15:33									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Asher The point was, he said Apple was smarter than its competitors...MS being a competitor, and having way way way more money than Apple will ever have.

MS has been engaging in illegal practices. They have also been taking advantage of loopholes in accounting practices.

I reckon Apple would make a lot more money too if it has been acting like MS.

	19-02-2004 15:56									#73
	Put an end to popups!

yeehaw... asher basher is back

	19-02-2004 16:04									#74
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't bash Asher. I only state the facts.

	19-02-2004 16:06									#75
	Got spare money?

true enough ... i stand corrected.
asher slasher then ?

	19-02-2004 17:21									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher Last I heard Apple had 33% of the market for MP3 players... Link this, please.

Source: Steve Jobs, Macworld Keynote January:

733.000 iPods sold oct. to dec. 2003
2 milion iPods sold total in the last 2 years (untill dec. 2003)
Market share (incl. small 50 $ flash players that only hold like 3 songs) (not incl. chritmas sales):
31 % in units,
55 % in revenue,
1 % in revenue and units in the world (of all types of mp3players)

That IS impressive, you can't argue against facts Asher.

	19-02-2004 17:42									#78
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Oh, I get it now. Silly me. Anywayz, it's the other way around. Behaving like a monopoly may make a company rich in the short-run, but in the long run it leads to downfall, so no, this is not a good "money-making" way to do bizness.

So Apple making the iPod with a proprietory format... behaving like a monopoly, will lead to the downfall of their music biz in the future?

Ahh... I guess they'll be giving back some of that growth then.

	19-02-2004 17:44									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui: Of course you are. Asher has already proven it. By patent numbers alone you fail in your argument. What, you have iTunes and that is it? That's your innovation argument?

Mentioning only a few:

First to bring the Graphical User interface to personal computers.

First to bring the mouse to personal computers.

.... laptop touchpad

First to bring a 32 bit processor AND first to bring a 64 bit processor to personal computers.

iMac (screen and comp in one box plus colors) also very innovative.

The design: There are SO MANY copies of Apple's design among pc computers. (none of them does it a good as Apple though).

First to make a 17 inch portable.

First to completely REMOVE the diskette drive.

Among the first to include dvd burners in their computers (the superdrive).

The iApps are very innovative. The computer as a digital hub. Miscrosoft is trying to copy it.

iPod and iTunes revolutionized the mp3 player world. You know where creative got their ideas for the Zen right?
...


...

	19-02-2004 18:19									#80
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins So Apple making the iPod with a proprietory format... behaving like a monopoly, will lead to the downfall of their music biz in the future? Ahh... I guess they'll be giving back some of that growth then.

This of course depends on what one considers "proprietary."

Temporary monopolies are always good for business, btw, especially when breaking into new markets.

Permanent monopolies suck raw fish eggs!

	19-02-2004 18:42									#81
	Inflate your Upload Space

So... Apple will be switching from AAC format then?

It seems that theres only one DRM compliant music format, that has been adopted by numerous manufacturers... and that would be WMA.

You think Apple will adopt WMA?

	19-02-2004 18:54									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy I never admitted anything. Steve Jobs is just fixing all the mistakes the company made before he took over the company in 1997. Since Jobs has come to the company Apple has very much improved, and this just a big step in Apple's progress.

In my recollections from his book In the Firing Line, Gil Amelio lists a number of product and structural improvements he made to Apple, the sort of long-term improvements that wouldn't pay off for a couple of years... just in time for Jobs to play his typical board games, get Amelio fired, and then take credit for the changes that he initially resisted.

	20-02-2004 00:49									#83
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger MS has been engaging in illegal practices.

What Apple's being do would be considered "illegal" as well if it had MS' marketshare.

quote: They have also been taking advantage of loopholes in accounting practices.

Now this is untrue, it's simply an opinion of yours which most investors happen to disagree with.

quote: I reckon Apple would make a lot more money too if it has been acting like MS.

Indeed, they should use MS as an example.

	20-02-2004 00:54									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Hagbart Mentioning only a few: First to bring a 32 bit processor AND first to bring a 64 bit processor to personal computers.

Lie and lie, for instance AMD was shipping 64-bit PCs before Apple (April 2003) and the PC has a 64-bit OS even now while Mac still doesn't.

quote: iMac (screen and comp in one box plus colors) also very innovative.

It would've been innovative had IBM not done it a year before, minus the colors.

quote: First to make a 17 inch portable. First to completely REMOVE the diskette drive. Among the first to include dvd burners in their computers (the superdrive).

These aren't innovations, but evolutions that Apple can afford to do first due to its absolute control over the hardware.

quote: The iApps are very innovative. The computer as a digital hub. Miscrosoft is trying to copy it.

MS is more of a digital hub than Apple is. Look at the Xbox and its apps like Music Mixer, look at the Media Center PCs, look at the Tablet PCs...

quote: iPod and iTunes revolutionized the mp3 player world. You know where creative got their ideas for the Zen right? ...

Creative was the first to make portable MP3 players. They were the first to make a HD-based MP3 player. They are the first to make portable media players.

Apple was not being innovative by taking their lead.

	20-02-2004 01:03									#85
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The problem with Apple fans is they mistake innovations for early adoption. Apple's complete control over their hardware allows them to adopt new technologies before most of their competitors, and then the Apple fans praise Apple for being "innovative" as if nobody ever thought of that before (Graphical user interface inspired by Xerox PARC, hmm)...

Most of them still don't know that the new iMacs are a blatant ripoff of the IBM NetVista X series, and that the old iMacs were also a ripoff of an IBM NetVista model. Each occured about a year before the Apple products...

I'll find it hard to believe Apple is innovative until they finally come to 1996 and adopt multi-button mice with scroll-wheels.

	20-02-2004 01:16									#86
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by JohnT In my recollections from his book In the Firing Line, Gil Amelio lists a number of product and structural improvements he made to Apple, the sort of long-term improvements that wouldn't pay off for a couple of years... just in time for Jobs to play his typical board games, get Amelio fired, and then take credit for the changes that he initially resisted.

Gil Amelio was a disaster for Apple, as were John Sculley and that other guy whose name escapes me.

Amelio never did anything for anyone, how he could have ended up as a CEO is beyond me. That book is widely regarded as self aggrandizing rubbish.

He made no such improvements. When Jobs took over he basically pared the product lines down and made the company profitable. The only black mark on his record is that, IIRC, he stopped development of the Newton, which promised to put Apple at the forefront of PDA development.

The smartest thing Amelio did was buy NeXT. Not only did that lead to his own downfall but it led to a vastly improved OS which was what Apple really needed.

That's not to say Jobs hasn't been lucky. I don't think he could have seen what the ipod would do for Apple. Apple has been doing pretty well since he came back (this year in terms of percentage increase, they've made more than any other computer company).

He could still end up doing a NeXT though.

	20-02-2004 01:19									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I'll find it hard to believe Apple is innovative until they finally come to 1996 and adopt multi-button mice with scroll-wheels.

Just buy a logitec, microsoft or whatever mouse and use it with the mac.

	20-02-2004 01:22									#88
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins So... Apple will be switching from AAC format then? It seems that theres only one DRM compliant music format, that has been adopted by numerous manufacturers... and that would be WMA. You think Apple will adopt WMA?

They will if they start getting marginalized. As I write Apple has over half the market for music downloads, and Napster is going out of business.

As I said, if you look in the itunes resources, you will find a WMA icon, so they are thinking about it.

People have the wrong idea about the itunes store. It isn't designed to make money, but only to sell ipods. You can't make much money off of downloads as the other services are beginning to discover, to their horror.

If moving to WMA would sell them more ipods, they'd do it. But why bother now - Apple's current plan is to virtually wipe out all other HD based and high end flash players. They've pretty much done the former (to my astonishment) and have sold 100,000 of the cheaper mini ipod before it has even been released.

People piss and moan about how expensive the ipod is (me included), but you can't complain from a business standpoint, since the strategy has worked in spades.

	20-02-2004 01:25									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Hagbart Just buy a logitec, microsoft or whatever mouse and use it with the mac.

Do I have to say this again? The mac is designed to be used with one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. That is the most efficient way of using a computer unless you are watching porn.

Since you typically use three click modifier keys w/SHIFT combinations, it's easier to use the keyboard.

But Hagbart is right. multibutton mice are plug & play on the mac. Most people who care don't keep the mouse that comes with their computer anyway.

I happen to like the Apple Pro Mouse. It's nice and solid, unlike many of its flimsier brethren.

	20-02-2004 01:27									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: They will if they start getting marginalized. As I write Apple has over half the market for music downloads, and Napster is going out of business.

Half for LEGAL music downloads

I wouldn't be suprised if a lot more people are using MP3's, OGG's and unprotected WMA's.