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Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by MrBaggins
Half for LEGAL music downloads

I wouldn't be suprised if a lot more people are using MP3's, OGG's and unprotected WMA's.


and unprotected AAC

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:31 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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the itunes store hasn't been profitable for apple. like aggie said, it's to push ipods.

i still think ipod minis suck. ipods themselves are nice, but i dunno if i'd want to get one. everybody, their mother, and their uncle's neighbor's sister's cousin's pet's petsitter's lover has one now, (at least on my college campus...) so it's kinda lost its snob appeal for me...

as far as innovation: blah blah blah blah blah, neither side seems willing to give the other its due.

out of curiosity, does anybody know if apple has managed to arrange something with apple records? iirc, apple computer agreed to not go into the music business when apple records complained, but with itunes and all...?

MrBaggins is offline MrBaggins
King

May 1999
time: 05:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:31
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Sure but I'm betting more MP3's than anything else, by a very long distance.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:33
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quote:
First to bring the Graphical User interface to personal computers.

First to bring the mouse to personal computers.


Both were invented by Xerox, however. They just didn't start shipping them before Apple stole the idea.

The others have been covered by Asher.

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:34 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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i don't see how multi-button mice take away from the one-hand-on-keyboard-one-hand-on-mouse thing at all...?

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Creative was the first to make portable MP3 players. They were the first to make a HD-based MP3 player. They are the first to make portable media players.


Before iPod was Creative Jukebox, a big bulky devise, larger and heavier than a diskman. Using USB1, tiny display, bad skip protection. Ugly as hell and anti-userfriendly.

The iPod came and changed the mp3-player world. It was severel generations ahead of the competition.
Using the 10 times faster firewire, having a large display, the size of a deck of cards, the great scrollwheel (which can scroll thru 1000 songs in a couple of seconds), supreme sound and syncing with iTunes. The design was a piece of art.

Later the iPod clones appeared. Among those we have the Zen. An example of one of the 100 clones are below.

Today no company has yet managed to push the iPod from its throne of the mp3player world!

The iPod brought mp3 players from the geeks to the common people (who can afford it of course, )

Just accept that the iPod has had a tremendous effect of the world of portable digital music players. Denying this will make you look silly.

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:36
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one of the clones:

Attachment: dcube.jpg
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:40 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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imacs aren't computers. they're pieces of ****. ugly pieces of ****, at that.

powermac cubes aren't computers either. they're pieces of ****, but at least they look nice.

and the imac was hardly innovative, seeing as ibm had done it before, that and the monitor-and-cpu combo isn't a new idea...

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:40
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Short summary of the history of personal computers:

1. Apple innovates a new product.

2. Microsoft copies it.

Repeat.

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:44 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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hagbart, firewire/ieee1394 could be used on the ipod because most macs came equipped with them. until this past cycle, it wasn't even standard on most x86 machines. why? not innovation (or lack thereof), but because most consumers didn't want to shell out the extra money required for a firewire port in their box.

how was the ipod generations ahead? i won't disagree that the ipod has dominated it, and therefore influenced the industry, but making the claim that it was the innovative spark is ludicrous.

just like your next post: give some examples where apple has innovated a product which led to microsoft's copying it? i guarantee you that you'll find a few examples, but that a majority of the ones you point out will either be 1) not innovations on apple's part, or 2) not stolen by microsoft, but rather developed concurrently.

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:54
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CNET has a video review of the new iPod mini.
http://news.com.com/1601-2-5159150.html

Eliot Van Buskirk, senior editor of CNET.com, describes the iPod as being innovation, apple as being ahead of all other mp3 players and the new touchsensitive clickwheel (picture below) as being a major innovation.

The clickwheel is the only buttons you need to navigate, change volume, rate songs, make playlists, turn backlight on/off.... ..... and so on.

THAT IS INNOVATION, like it or not.

Attachment: index_clickwheel01062004.jpg
This has been downloaded 49 time(s).

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:58
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The new iPod minis, released tomorrow (100.000 preorders):

Attachment: index_headerfamily01122004.jpg
This has been downloaded 46 time(s).

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
First to bring the Graphical User interface to personal computers.

First to bring the mouse to personal computers.


Both were invented by Xerox, however. They just didn't start shipping them before Apple stole the idea.

The others have been covered by Asher.


You'll believe anything he says, won't you?

Check out the facts. The Macintosh GUI was quite different from the Xerox GUI. If you bothered reading around you would find that Jef Raskin, the chief mac designer had come up with these ideas long before Xerox put them to work.

Raskin wrote his PhD thesis on GUIs in the 60s.

http://mxmora.best.vwh.net/JefRaskin.html

quote:
My thesis in Computer Science, published in 1967, argued that computers should be all-graphic, that we should eliminate character generators and create characters graphically and in various fonts, that what you see on the screen should be what you get, and that the human interface was more important than mere considerations of algorithmic efficiency and compactness. This was heretical in 1967, half a decade before PARC started. Many of the basic principles of the Mac were firmly entrenched in my psyche. By the way, the name of my thesis was the "Quick-Draw Graphics System", which became the name of (and part of the inspiration for) Atkinson's graphics package for the Mac.


Moreover, the story that Jobs went to PARC and came back to start the Macintosh is simply false. The Mac project had been up and running for months before Jobs went to PARC.

The similarities between the Mac OS and Xerox GUI have been wildly exaggerated Like most major inventions the development process was not linear and involved a large amount of cross fertilisation.

Here's the other article that Raskin references.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020808....com/horn1.html

Anyway, have you ever seen Xerox Star? This is what it looked like.

Attachment: figure1.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:01
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A better pic.

Attachment: thumbstar.jpg
This has been downloaded 42 time(s).

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:05
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#105 Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
First to bring the Graphical User interface to personal computers.

First to bring the mouse to personal computers.


Both were invented by Xerox, however. They just didn't start shipping them before Apple stole the idea.

The others have been covered by Asher.


No they weren't. They were invented by Doug Engelbart of SRI back in 1968, and not only did he "invent" the mouse and the GUI at that demo he also "invented" video-conferencing, hypertext, object addressing, and dynamic file linking.

You can see the footage of his demonstration here: http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:06 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Hagbart
Before iPod was Creative Jukebox, a big bulky devise, larger and heavier than a diskman. Using USB1, tiny display, bad skip protection. Ugly as hell and anti-userfriendly.

It used the smallest hardware available at the time. The Jukebox predated the iPod by nearly three years, which is a LONG TIME in computer technology.

The iPod still isn't innovative, it's a more polished product of something Creative innovated with.

Deal with it.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:06
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Raskin beats him by a year.

But not really, since as I said, the development of the GUI is down to a lot of people and cannot be traced to a linear sequence.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:08 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Hagbart
CNET has a video review of the new iPod mini.
http://news.com.com/1601-2-5159150.html

Eliot Van Buskirk, senior editor of CNET.com, describes the iPod as being innovation, apple as being ahead of all other mp3 players and the new touchsensitive clickwheel (picture below) as being a major innovation.

The clickwheel is the only buttons you need to navigate, change volume, rate songs, make playlists, turn backlight on/off.... ..... and so on.

THAT IS INNOVATION, like it or not.

Um. The Nomad Zens have always had clickwheels...

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:08 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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#109 Report this post to a moderator
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xerox parc wasn't ever really going to ship them. they were a think tank first and foremost.

and one control to do everything, hagbart? it's been seen before, you know. maybe with not so many features, but since there's prior art... it's not innovative. sorry.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:09 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
You'll believe anything he says, won't you?

Check out the facts. The Macintosh GUI was quite different from the Xerox GUI. If you bothered reading around you would find that Jef Raskin, the chief mac designer had come up with these ideas long before Xerox put them to work.

Again, you miss the point and use strawmen. No one claimed Apple copied the Xerox GUI wholesale.

Just saying they're being "innovative" is a joke, seeing as it was Xerox who innovated and Apple who took its lead. A familiar story...

Q Cubed is offline Q Cubed
Prince
t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:11 Visit Q Cubed's homepage!
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and as far as cnet...

the day i take cnet to be the ultimate source of computing knowledge and the arbiter of what is and isn't innovative will be the day that i also take vogue, elle, and cosmo to be the arbiters of what is and isn't attractive on straight men who don't give much of a hoot about how they look.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:14
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Upon posting, I see that Agathon went on a bit about Jef Raskin. IIRC, Raskin was on Englebarts team at SRI but didn't join Englebart when the team went to PARC in 1971/72. I've got a book at home about PARC and I'll look it up when I get there.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
and as far as cnet...

the day i take cnet to be the ultimate source of computing knowledge and the arbiter of what is and isn't innovative will be the day that i also take vogue, elle, and cosmo to be the arbiters of what is and isn't attractive on straight men who don't give much of a hoot about how they look.


GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:15
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And the LORD cometh down the mountain, and he punished the Applelites, and punished the Microsofites and he said "AND YEH SHALL STOP THY BICKERING AND SILLINESS, OR THY SHALL SUFFER MY FULL WRATH", and thus HE spake, and the Applelites and Microsofites ignored the LORD, and shall be smited soon for their blasphemy.....

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Raskin beats him by a year.

But not really, since as I said, the development of the GUI is down to a lot of people and cannot be traced to a linear sequence.


Raskin was on the same SRI project as Englebart, IIRC. Hell, he might've been the person at the other end of the videoconferencing demonstration.

Again, I'll look it up tonight.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:16
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Who invented the GUI? A stack of people who, working together or separately, came up with different ideas and fed off each others' contributions.

Sounds familiar....

Hagbart is offline Hagbart
Prince
Copenhagen, Europe
Feb 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher

Um. The Nomad Zens have always had clickwheels...


Not the same thing.

Well it's your loss.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT


Rafkin was on the same SRI project as Englebart, Aggie. IIRC, he might've been the person at the other end of the videoconferencing demonstration.


I don't doubt it. I just wanted to clear up some misrepresentations.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:20 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Hagbart
Not the same thing.

Well it's your loss.

It's a single scrollwheel that clicks and controls every aspect of the interface.

How the hell is that not a click-wheel?

You're another Machead that doesn't know what innovation is. Everything Apple copies and changes is an innovation...

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 20-02-2004 02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hagbart
Short summary of the history of personal computers:

1. Apple innovates a new product.

2. Microsoft copies it.

Repeat.


1 should really be "someone innovates a new product".

 
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