15-04-2004 09:12									#181
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Unless there is some effect from the non-standard map, restarts under deity end at 1500. Here is a thread from last fall that includes some fantastic research by Zenon among others.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...561#post2347561

Monk

	15-04-2004 17:23									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant Romps are no fun, just figuring out how to end it as quickly as possible. We are past 1500; isn't that enough to cut off the restarts, or is is 1750?

Couldn't remember the restart date, but didn't worry about it since 1750 will happen in next turnset.

quote: We are nearly 6 weeks into this Free-For-All; we seem to have dropped the "first poster wins" mentality and gone back to the "I'll take it for this week" mindset...

Not sure what the deal is. This forum has been generally slow for 2-3 weeks now. I disagree with your "mindset" position. I think it's a simple matter of complexity once you get over 40 cities -- things just take longer, which means you need to plan a considerably longer time window to take a turn. "Play and post" is pretty easy when you're doing 20 turns of exploration and growing cities to size 3.

	15-04-2004 18:24									#183
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Hmmm - maybe we need to limit Free-For-Alls to 20 or less cities? or just smaller maps?

	15-04-2004 18:52									#184
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Well, I think gigamaps, while expanding the challenge, do guarantee a need for extended turnsets. It's just damned hard to keep track of all the units, cities, and encounter scenarios.

As a result, ppl tend to take their time. They don't want to be the one to mess up the group's effort (and be pilloried by RCC).

Believe me, I've been there (see O Sole Mio for about 2 pages on how badly I screwed up ).

	16-04-2004 00:43									#185
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Well, I think that part of the sloth is that best of excuses, RL. I tend to procrastinate about taxes, (hey this time I finished 10 hours early! ) and the holiday W/E (we were out of town visiting the new grandling) adds to the away time from gaming.

But JR is right -- games well along seem to slow down -- maybe we need a new "early" one in the mix. Hmmm after I finish my obligations (Lazy, Free+) I might see if the market would like a new one?

	17-04-2004 19:28									#186
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am away from this forum until next Thursday - concert in Salt Lake City on Monday - but I hope to be released from durance vile by then. Perhaps Sparrowhawk?

	18-04-2004 03:51									#187
	Tired of ads?

I was checking this game out and reread the thread first (to make sure I knew the rules). It seems someone else doesn't, as our reputation is "despicable" and per SG(1)'s first post of this thread, we need to maintain a "spotless rep". This brings up a question that was asked previously...is Eiffel Tower allowed (and I normally wouldn't want or need it, but if we are to return our rep to spotless, is this allowed as a way to do so?)

	18-04-2004 16:50									#188
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think we should convene a Judicial Enquiry to determine the person or persons currently unknown responsible for this lamentable fall from grace - and they had best get their toothbrushes packed!

Stu

	18-04-2004 19:50									#189
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Looking back at the previous saves, the rep was spotless at the end of Stu's turns in 1590. Unless I missed something, there was only one subsequent turnset posted, 1690. I will let him speak up, though, anticipating that he will claim confusion with another game that requires a horrid rep.

I know that things have been slow lately, but, this needs to be taken down. Hopefully, the offense against fair play ( ) came late in the set and the first part of the set can be used as a new starting point. The whole point of this turnset was to grow under Democracy and that benifit should not sheild this misstep. If the rep hit came after the switch back to Fundy, it should not be too hard to redo from there.

Monk

	19-04-2004 18:04									#190
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Um, yep, that was me.

This is strange. Looking at my log here, I don't see anything that would puts spots on our reputation. In fact, I see several notes indicating I played by the rules -- declining all offers of CF/peace, but abiding by Senate dictums during the Democracy years. If I read the logs correctly, the only time any possible stain to reputation could have occured would be after the return to Fundy (1680 iirc). I could swear all my attacks were upon civs we were already at war with...

I will check the saves tonight (should have one for every turn) and report back around this time tomorrow.

I was actually being pretty careful to play by the rules, so this accusation (which, sadly, I have no reason to doubt) seems quite bizarre...

	19-04-2004 22:25									#191
	Increase Your PM Length

Accusation is such a strong word....I prefer "error".

I was quite certain that this was an honest mistake, and it seems that is the case. SG(1) convened a grand jury (of 1 person....Bloody Monk), Bloody Monk investigated, and determined the cause of the problem. But no accusations, just an error that you can correct.

All is good No real harm done

(and in truth I hadn't considered the option of replaying the turns, I assumed that the Eiffel Tower was our best and only option, replaying did not occur to me.

* Sparrowhawk

	20-04-2004 00:17									#192
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Not to worry, SH. I'm not upset, just mystified.

"Accusation" seems accurate enough...

	20-04-2004 01:18									#193
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Yeah, I opened up the game this morning (to have something to think about during the slow process from sleep to functionality) and noticed a less than sterling rep -- as well as war with everyone.

It might be that the action occured during the Fundy years -- thus the lack of warning (do you really want to do this?) that definately occurs with Democracy.

If the game starter desires, I'll (a) wait; (b) build a Tower ASAP (c) go to Democracy & "allow" the ai to "undo" the war mongering (d) something else.

I'm almost caught up with my other obligations (logs to write), so am thinking about moving along with this one tonight.

	20-04-2004 02:33									#194
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

OnS -- Let me check out what happened when I get home tonight. With any luck, we can just back it up a turn or 2 and let you work from a spotless save...

	20-04-2004 04:06									#195
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OK -- otherwise I was just going to use some of those leftover camels (now trucks) to make a tall wondrous spire...

	20-04-2004 06:35									#196
	It's now 1680... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As I suspectd, I lost my focus in the bloodlust of the final turn. Too bad, as i recall much being accomplished...

The 1680 save is Spotless; 1690 is indeed despicable.

Herewith I post a (Mac) file of the 1680 save. Likely useless to most of you, but I don't have the ThinkPad home tonight.

I have emailed the save to work, where, upon my arrival (7am chicago time), I will zip and post.

Sorry for the inconvenience. I await my sentencing by the tribunal...

Attachment: th_1680a.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	20-04-2004 06:48									#197
	Quick note Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It was in the now-missing 1690 turn that Industrialization was discovered, and Darwin's was completed in Panormus (with leftover camels).

Here's the now-missing turn -- that which did not happen --

quote: 1690 (10) --Faders are now at 40-0-60. --Industrialization discovered. chivalry selected over Communism. --Our 'clads empty Little Bighorn, which we enter and capture (171 plunder, minus 136 used to bribe nearby spanish ellie. --Bribe Cadiz (3) for 219 (51 plunder, plus legion and trireme). Nearby catpult bribed for 144. --Darwin's Expedition completed in Panormus, camel production returns to trade goods. Upset at having saved 12 camels for a WoW costing 400 shields, Chaplain Big Bun retires.

Perhaps we were at peace with the siousfolk when I attacked... or perhaps the nearby Spanish units I bribed...
(Frankly, I just opened the save long enough to see that 1680 = Spotless. All the unit buys for 1690 are set, and you have less than 100 GP, OnS. But fear not, for Fundy tribute shall make your coffers overflow!

Also -- Please note that shipchain adjustments will be required once leo creates all those lovely 7-movement Transports for us...

Just remember to finsh Darwin, and have a plan for two techs after IND.
Have fun!!!

	20-04-2004 08:39									#198
	Remove this text

The Senate forced peace with the Spanish in 1630. Bribing of units should still be OK, though. I don't see any notes on the Sioux, but I thought we were at war with them during SG's turn. Another missing note? Check the 1680 save.

	20-04-2004 16:47									#199
	Increase the size of your Attachments

JRabbit -- cleaning up the Institute isn't so bad with toothbrushes -- but the periodontal tools I've been using allow a performance at a Mike's level.

	20-04-2004 18:00									#200
	Spotless Zipfile Support Apolyton

Here's the 1680 save, all nice and squeaky-clean.

Wish I could remember what I did in 1690 that stained our rep, but obviously I thought I was only attacking folks we were at war with, so my recollections are unlikely to help.

Looking forward to examination of the attached save by OnS (and others?) to shed some light.

Anyway, this should put us back on track...

Attachment: th_1680a.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	20-04-2004 21:15									#201
	Tired of ads?

The a1680 save is spotless and peaceful relations with the Germs and Spanish. Both civs show "war" in the despicable a1690 save. I could not see how you managed that as there did not appear to be any attacks or city bribes in 1690.

Then I hit "enter" at the end of a1680 and the answer became clear. Both civs "demand" we remove our troops. If one says no to each, the resulting situation is war with both and despicable reputation. I think that is what must have happened.

You must have forgotten the status of relations with those two civs. Of course, this amounts to a "I didn't know it was loaded" defense. But, accidental death or even negligent homicide is better than first degree murder. With a good lawyer and a sympathetic jury (everyone loves bunnies!!) you just might get off without serious "time."

If the game plays on from a1680, we can "pretend the offense" never happened, and for those of us in the pre-senile stage of life, "I forgot" is not too hard to understand. So, happy civing!!

Monk

	20-04-2004 22:06									#202
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OK, that makes it clear. I was trying to induce the AI civs to declare war, so I declined to remove troops.

I did not realize that we take a reputation hit for that. (Hm, been using that smiley a lot lately...)

I think I was just confused, since the first time they ask, you can "forget" to remove troops with no ill effect. But when the game asks you to choose between removal and renouncing a treaty, you take the hit (even though it's they who declare war).

My bad.

Thanks for the catch, BM.

	23-04-2004 07:16									#203
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(This might be a double post as the first was SNAFU'd.)

Save for now.

Attachment: th_a1752.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	23-04-2004 22:15									#204
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

1680 (0) -- Talk to Germans and demand tribute = War; Spanish are chatterboxes, but on their turn they ask us to remove our troops (which we do.) Discover Industrialization on the “second part” of the 1680 turn (no I don’t pretend to understand it either, but I think it is some sort of stop/start phenom.) -- so I guess my eyeball is a bit off -- opt for Commy over AT, Chiv, Elec.

1690 (1) complete Darwin’s -- discover Commy & ESP & opt for Corp over AT, Chiv, Elec, & Theo (Hmmm -- other games would have seen other choices, I guess.) Babs offer $650 for a cease fire, tempting, but we decline.

1700 (2) Complete Sun Tsu (Spanish abandon -- didn’t know they were working on this -- too bad). Take Lil Bighorn (+175) buy Cadiz (-183, +52) make Spain withdraw their troops (let’s play this both ways -- move some guys in their ZOC just to keep the burrs where they ought to be.) Buy a Spanish Settler (+/-300, None); smack a German Settler (cost was 804, too much) (Rifle now a Vet -- hey with Sun Tsu, this will happen often, so no more notes of this sort.)

1710 (3) Buy Wounded Knee (-205, +186 & a market & two units -- decent ROI) Insist that the Spanish remove their troops.

1720 (4) Dye Cartenna to Ur (d) = 198 (deliveries less than $100 not mentioned.) Pop = 20M; Hut = 100g. Espy Rome, Antium. Insist that the Spanish remove their troops -- they declare War. Smack a couple of Spanish units near (former) Sioux lands.

1730 (5) Malaca Gems (d) to Nin = 340; Carthage Dye, Silk (both (n) = 214 x 2) to Nin; West Sta (n) to Ur = 102; Silver (d) Rus to Bab = 210; Boat chain to Bab world is in good working order. Toggle to 4.3.3. Buy Saragosa (-240, +51); Bilbao (-330, +47); and another small Spanish city (-214, +something).

1740 (6) Discover Corp, opt for Chiv over AT, Elec, GE & Refine. Go ahead & smack a barb frigate + troops, musket smacks a Spanish cat; Sioux offer all their gold (170) and all their knowledge (no additional techs) for a cease fire…no -- then they slay an engineer.

1750 (7) Take Toledo (+77), buy Malaga (-358, +39, lost a spy & only got the satisfaction of not having to move troops way out there) and Salamanca (-321, +59, vet spy, + granary (sold), library & 2 infantry.)

1752 (8) Discover Chivalry (got caught by surprise -- didn’t buy up a bunch of horses -- shame on me.) opt for Lead over At, GE, Refine, Theo. Buy a Roman Trireme (=200+/-, some day a None boat), Spa Settler (=300+/-, None) and Cedar Creek (-240, +145) Sioux Destroyed.

OK, 8 Turns, enough damage. Almost a reasonable boat/RR chain from the main lands to the Spanish Theatre -- need a bit more RR work. If we can establish a truck target (Madrid is size 10, but inland) then we can wipe away the Babs with no guilty feelings, but I’ve used the Babs because they’re so convenient. I mostly ignored the Germs, but they can be mopped up with a few units & funds; Spanish might also go away with a similar push.

We also have WAY too much money.

There were three outbreaks of barbs NE of the Babs & I’ve started a slow purchase program there -- hopefully we’ll pick up a few more to help our future visit to the dark area east of Bab world.

	23-04-2004 23:02									#205
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Very nice, OnS.

One quick note -- You said:

quote: 1700 (2) Complete Sun Tsu (Spanish abandon -- didn’t know they were working on this -- too bad).

My log states:

quote: 1640 (5) --Spanish begin construction of Sun Tzu. (Big Bun hopes they finish it about the time we get cavalry... )

I had considered STWA but decided that getting Darwin's fastest was the better priority. (Of course, that was before I saved 12 camels for a 400-shield WoW...

	24-04-2004 00:13									#206
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OnS,

Despite the STWA fumble, the turnset was successful. It's just a matter of time, now, and maybe the "excellence of execution" (who among us is Mr. Perfect??) is not so important.

Looking back, they were only a few turns from completion and the UN was also available, but that's not worth mentioning and there's still time to get the UN's intelligence. And doesn't anyone ever check the size 8 cities to rush an aquaduct as the food box is about to fill??

Well doesn't that sound pissy and picky?? Sorry, bro; I don't mean it that way.

Monk

	24-04-2004 14:46									#207
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Don't forget - UN is a nono in this game.

Stu

	24-04-2004 17:13									#208
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I like STWA! Especially in conjunction with Chivalry, which I thought we might well have picked up way sooner.

I will not be able to get on this at a predictable time this week, so any available warmongers are welcome to take a turnset in what promises to be a very satisfying saturnalia of gore...

	24-04-2004 22:33									#209
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Don't forget - UN is a nono in this game. Stu

Big woops on me!!

Thanks for the reminder as I did not remember that. Good thing I've not played this one for some time. I would have blundered into a trip to Sticky Mouse Institute for sure.

With the recent rules difficulties folk have been having, would it be in order to repost the rules for each game at the top of each page?? We seem to be confusing one game for another.

Monk

	26-04-2004 12:56									#210
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

How about we work out a brief summary of the important rules for each game and then copy and paste it onto the bottom of each turnlog. Maybe even post it with the save game, so that the next player is aware of what has to be done when they downlolad the file. I realise that the save and the log are usually posted together, but this isn't always the case.