12-03-2004 03:52									#211
	Yes, yes we are Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy My post was the best piece of reasoning I've ever done and you people are IGNORING IT???

Yup

	12-03-2004 03:53									#212
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: and sperms can survive for 7-10 days inside the uterus, which makes for a pretty damn short window between menustrual periods and the 'danger zone'.

7-10 days?

Not even in good mucus.

Also, after ovulation, there is a mucus barrier that forms, which does not allow the sperm to pass.

You need to be careful in the first part of the cycle, after menstruation, becuase sometimes the mucus will allow sperm to pass through.

Again, read the method. They answer most of the objections, much better than I can.

	12-03-2004 03:53									#213
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Beautiful

*Whaleboy runs into corner, cries*

	12-03-2004 03:54									#214
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BK, if you're so familiar with the female reproductive system, how come you're against sex?

Bad experiences eh?

	12-03-2004 03:55									#215
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Sex is fun Fun is good We should do good things Ergo, sex is good, and we should all have sex. NOW!!!

1. Rape is intercourse, and rape is not fun.

	12-03-2004 03:58									#216
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

for who?

	12-03-2004 04:00									#217
	Tired of ads?

quote: So you admit that, as a pledger, sex is a driving force to be married? Thanks for proving my point.

Yes.

But there are other reasons why I do not, so clearly, it is not the only, nor is it the most prominent reason for me to marry.

quote: One pledger I knew certainly didn't object to a little bump 'n grind (non-coital) and give 'n take for oral sex.

Again, not likely from my perspective. I don't deny that there are some, but I would think the majority of the women would not be fond of anal intercourse.

quote: Another one I knew couldn't stop talking about sex, and wanted to marry a marine (him 26, her 18). I don't know if they ever did. I think he backed off cuz she was too hard up. Cute tho', damn shame.

See. You prove my point. Just because pledgers are hard up does not mean that they marry.

quote: p.s. You guys added 4 ****in pages in 1 day!?

Considering that it's me on one side, could it not be frusteration of a sort?

	12-03-2004 04:02									#218
	Support Apolyton

quote: BK, if you're so familiar with the female reproductive system, how come you're against sex?

Familiar? I wouldn't say that. Most of this is book knowledge so to speak.

quote: Bad experiences eh?

You would understand if you saw a pic of my ex. Best argument to take a pledge.

	12-03-2004 04:05									#219
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: What do you call a woman who uses the ovulation method?

Eh, perhaps with the rhythm method, but Billings is not rhythm.

Why don't you look at the link and educate yourself.

quote: So it seems ben prefers emotionally stunted failed marriages to the "great evil" of pre-marital sex...

I say that both are evil, one not worse than the other. Is that concept so difficult to understand?

	12-03-2004 04:10									#220
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: 1. Rape is intercourse, and rape is not fun.

Such an act may be "fun" (very simplistically) for one, but the others negative fun cancels it out, so generally the level is 0. I would postulate that negative fun is greater than positive, so the act is implicitely not fun. In other words, sex in the sense that I use the word, has to be mutually fun. If its fun for all and not hurting anyone else, get ****ing!

quote: Familiar? I wouldn't say that. Most of this is book knowledge so to speak.

Some book!! I really should become religious

	12-03-2004 04:13									#221
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: however, say they get married and jump each others' bones. nine months later, a mewling, stinking, drooling, and cute bald ball of flesh comes tumbling out, but by this time, the two have already decided that they don't like each other very much.

Are you aware that this ad is used by planned parenthood to promote abortions? Same concept. It is bad form to argue from the worst position against, the ideal. Where there are a few cases like this, is it not better to have made the commitment in marriage, rather than to have done precisely the same thing outside of marriage?

If marriage has any meaning to the participants, then they will not split up as soon as the baby shows up, becuase they anticipate this desire and have some means of preparing themselves.

This same couple has no such security outside of marriage, no promises to stay together.

quote: sex shouldn't be viewed as a reward for marriage. it shouldn't be viewed as a priviledge. it shouldn't be viewed as a benefit. sex is what it is. it doesn't have meaning outside of a deeply committed, loving, permanent relationship, i.e., marriage. to do things without meaning...

I agree fully. Well said.

	12-03-2004 04:19									#222
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: sex in the sense that I use the word,

"When I use a word, it means just what I say it means, neither more nor less. "

	12-03-2004 04:20									#223
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I differentiate between sex between two consenting people and non-consenting sex. Attempting to link the two on anything other than the physiological act is problematic at best. If you thought I was advocating rape then that is quite a misunderstanding on your part!!

	12-03-2004 04:26									#224
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

No, just laughing at your phrasing, that's all.

Yes, I agree, but now, you have denied your first premise. Clearly, not all sex is fun. Certain conditions need to exist in order for sex to be fun.

	12-03-2004 04:28									#225
	Got spare money?

quote: It is bad form to argue from the worst position against, the ideal.

You should practice what you preach.

	12-03-2004 04:29									#226
	Tired of ads?

quote: Yes, I agree, but now, you have denied your first premise. Clearly, not all sex is fun. Certain conditions need to exist in order for sex to be fun.

Then I should amend.

Consenting sex is fun
Fun is good
We should do good things (whatever that means to us as individuals as per emotivism and utilitarianism)

Ergo, consenting sex is good, and we should all have sex. NOW!!! personal circumstances permitting

	12-03-2004 04:33									#227
	Remove this text

quote: Consenting sex is fun

But what about the consequences of the act? In order to gage whether an act is good, one must also consider the consequences.

Your second premise is then not true. It is not true that everything that is fun, is good, because what is fun, may have consequences that are not fun.

	12-03-2004 04:35									#228
	Got spare money?

quote: You should practice what you preach.

Ideally, abstinence is far superior to birth control.

Been my argument through the thread, Theban.

	12-03-2004 04:40									#229
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

One thing I've not seen challenged here is the assertion that waiting until getting married prevents the proliferation of STD's... well, given that about half of marriages fail anyway, and pretty much all the people who divorce will go on to have sex with other people, why push a clearly failing institution which doesn't even result in life-long monogamy in many cases?

To act like if we just wait until marriage to have sex we'll all be safe from STD's and unwanted pregnancies is a gross oversimplification. But then oversimplying things to "pre-marital sex is bad, the end" is the entire basis of these abstinence programs anyway...

And why should married people not be made to feel bad for not abstaining anyway? :P

	12-03-2004 04:42									#230
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: But what about the consequences of the act? In order to gage whether an act is good, one must also consider the consequences.

Consequential. The act is fun and that is all you can know. The way to deal with those possible consequences though is to use protection or abortion. Though there are problems in terms of effect on the woman of abortion, those are environmental so we can ignore them in this scenario. By eliminating those consequences, you get the benefits of sex with no problems!

quote: Your second premise is then not true. It is not true that everything that is fun, is good, because what is fun, may have consequences that are not fun.

Same goes for everything. Using that logic, I cannot publish a book because the methods of paper production. Nihilism seems to imply that balance in any case.

Furthermore in the absense of altruism (egoism shows it to be a fallacy), we only do what is felicific anyway, that is all of human action (which I can also link back to a motivation in sex but that would be going off at a tangent at this stage). So the "bad" consequences of fun are somwhat worthless in consideration of that act. There is also a contextual argument related to the "needs of the many" proposition. Assuming contraceptives and abortion eliminate personal consequences, the sociological consequences are not the concern of two individuals, both statistically speaking and in terms of their own lives, the benefits of sex outweigh the problems caused to society and thus back at them by their own actions.

quote: Ideally, abstinence is far superior to birth control. Been my argument through the thread, Theban.

Sex w/o birth control = beneficial but possible consequences outweigh to produce value of 0

Sex + Birth control = Beneficial, positive value

Abstinance = Sexual value of 0

Sex + birth control = Sexual value of >0.

Sex is part of the human condition (I would argue that it is the foundation for the human condition but again going off at a tangent), therefore sexual value of >0 is beneficial to human.

Whether or not that contradicts religious value is questionable, but I dare say sexual value is more important than religious value, or at least more fundamental. To me at least, I'm not going to start dictating how you should run your psyche, but I'm just describing how things work Whaleboy-wise.

Does this mean I'll go to hell? Be that as it may, I'm going to bed, so keep the thread warm for me!!

	12-03-2004 04:47									#231
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: One thing I've not seen challenged here is the assertion that waiting until getting married prevents the proliferation of STD's... well, given that about half of marriages fail anyway,

First of all, although half of all marriages fail, fewer than half of all people who get married, have failed marriages.

Secondly, can you show that those who wait until marriage, that their marriages are more or less likely to fail than those who do not wait?

I would argue the latter. If the latter is true, then by your own argument, I have proved my own claim. Those who have intercourse, before marriage, would be much more likely to get divorced, and have a greater exposure to stds.

	12-03-2004 04:57									#232
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ideally, abstinence is far superior to birth control. Been my argument through the thread, Theban.

Ideal abstinence is better than ideal birth control, for prevention of unwanted pregnancies and STD transmission.

Real world birth control is better than real world abstinence for the same.

From PlannedParenthood:

quote: HOW WELL FAMs WORKS Of 100 women using FAMs about 25 will become pregnant during the first year of typical use. Perfect use can give better results. Nine women will become pregnant with perfect use of the calendar method. Perfect use of the post-ovulation method, the basal body temperature method, the cervical mucus (ovulation) method, or the symptothermal method results in only one to three pregnancies. Pregnancy rates generally are higher for single women who use these methods. FAMs do not provide protection against sexually transmitted infections. ADVANTAGES OF FAMs There are no medical or hormonal side effects. Calendars, thermometers, and charts are easy to get. WHO CAN USE FAMs women in good health who have had careful instruction women whose sex partner is equally committed to the method Women should not rely on this method if they have irregular periods irregular body temperature patterns uncooperative partners HOW FAMs IS USED Expert and professional guidance are essential for women to learn how to use these methods successfully. POSSIBLE DISADVANTAGES OF FAMs These methods require months of training. Care is needed in keeping records and interpreting signs. Illness or even lack of sleep can cause “false” temperature signals. Vaginal infections or use of vaginal products — like douches — or medication may alter cervical mucus. You and your partner may be tempted to take risks during your fertile period, or “unsafe days.”

	12-03-2004 05:00									#233
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: However co-habiting couples are 50% more likely to divorce after five years, 60% more likely to be divorced after ten years, compared to those who wait until marriage

http://www.globalchange.com/books/rpl2a.htm

For the UK.

Looking for American numbers.

	12-03-2004 05:00									#234
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That first line makes zero sense to me, it's probably down to all the epidemiology studying I've done today...

Even if the latter is true, I would sincerely doubt the difference is statistically significant*. People have made just as persuasive arguments in this thread that people who don't engage in pre-marital sex are more inclined get married when they aren't ready for it, leading to more divorces on their part.

Although your stats seem apt, what is the source?

	12-03-2004 05:02									#235
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: First of all, although half of all marriages fail, fewer than half of all people who get married, have failed marriages.

Poorly worded.

Some people get married twice. That's why there is not a 1:1 correlation.

According to the US 2002 Divorce stats, the percentage of FIRST marriages that end in divorce, are 43%.

So 43% of the people who marry, also get divorced.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

7% is statistically significant.

	12-03-2004 05:06									#236
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ben, maybe because people who live together before marriage are also more likely to see divorce as an option. I know you religious wacko types dont take too kindly to divorce.

	12-03-2004 05:08									#237
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: will become pregnant with perfect use of the calendar method. Perfect use of the post-ovulation method, the basal body temperature method, the cervical mucus (ovulation) method, or the symptothermal method results in only one to three pregnancies. Pregnancy rates generally are higher for single women who use these methods.

Where's the Billings method in all of this?

	12-03-2004 05:09									#238
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: ben, maybe because people who live together before marriage are also more likely to see divorce as an option. I know you religious wacko types dont take too kindly to divorce.

And religious folks are more likely to take a pledge.

Irrelevant to the issue at hand.

	12-03-2004 05:11									#239
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: the cervical mucus (ovulation) method,

Let's assume that Planned Parenthood means the Billings method.

It is not clear that by grouping all these methods together, which problems apply to which methods.

This is a very careless form of analysis.

	12-03-2004 05:12									#240
	Tired of ads?

im simply stating an alternate cause as to why people who dont cohabitate might not get divorced as much.

SEE A ****ING ALTERNATE POINT OF VIEW FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE SELF RIGHTEOUS ZEALOT!