12-03-2004 01:51									#181
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quote: Why do you need condoms at all? What purpose do they serve?

Sex without fluid transfer. Having sex without significant risk of disease transfer or unwanted birth. A hell of a lot more effective than trusting to human nature.

	12-03-2004 01:52									#182
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quote: but a divorce... it's breaking the contract after it's been sealed. even worse if children are involved. divorce is worse than sleeping around, precisely because of its effects on the children.

I don't see one worse than the other. Many of the problems people run into is when they start sleeping around. Sure, it may not hurt a person as a divorce would, but what about abortion? That's the perspective that I have on this issue. Birth control fails, so people resort to abortions.

	12-03-2004 01:53									#183
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People who refuse to use condoms aren't very likely to obey a pledge not to have sex. Pledgers are at a greater risk of STDs and teen pregnncy. Why do Christians hate children so?

	12-03-2004 01:53									#184
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quote: Have anal and oral sex, because "it doesn't really count as sex." Oops, another dirty little secret about Christian pledgers.

1. wrong, it is sex.
2. i've never understood the first. things are supposed to come out of it, not go into it. which is the reason why i refuse to take suppositories and am hoping that they figure out another way to test prostate health.

quote: Condoms have a 99% success rate. Condoms are far more effective than abstinence in preventing pregnancy and stds.

only when condoms are used properly. seriously, with as many idiots in the world opening attachments and getting infected, you think that they'd be able to open a little foil wrapper, put it on without air bubbles, use water-based lubricant, and so on without either: tearing it; degrading the latex's strength by having kept it in their pocketses; using the size that befits them; and so on? please.
abstinence is the only one that cannot create pregnancy. why? abstinence is NOT HAVING SEX.
the pledges for abstinence does not necessarily mean that the pledgees will actually practice abstinent behavior.

quote: Oh no we don't, because we know that abstinence has an extremely high failure rate. Almost 70% of pledgers have sex before marriage. Thus, their abstinence method failed. They had sex. And when they do, they don't use protection.

sex-ed that focuses only on abstinence might not be the best idea; however, to obfuscate the boundaries between the actual practice and what is said is, again, a folly. people are notorious for breaking pledges. or, to use the cliche, actions speak louder than words.
put another way, when you're a horny teen and getting hot and heavy, are you going to think about some promise you made in front of a bunch of people through social engineering? probably not. on the other hand, if you really were serious about it, you'd either stop, or not get yourself in such a situation--meaning that you'd have a 100% chance of avoiding pregnancy.

	12-03-2004 01:54									#185
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riling up religious fundies
making large water balloons that explode on contact
making large shaving creram balloons that explode on contact
cheaper alternative to Prolong (tm)
good container for making popsicles for relief of vaginal pain after giving birth
etc.

	12-03-2004 01:57									#186
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quote: Why? There is a biological imperitive for reproduction... and there is no biological imperitive for marriage.

I would argue against you in two ways.

1. Not everyone has a biological imperitive for intercourse. They are doing so, because of peer pressure.

2. People, even if they have a biological imperitive, do have control over their actions, and desires. Otherwise, how could we condemn a rapist for his actions?

3. I would also argue that there is a biological imperitive for marriage. People want and crave the intimate companionship found in marriage, and will seek other ways to fulfill this companionship, if marriage is discredited.

quote: Why should a marital state of someone effect a biological imperitive?

You again assume, that one has no control over one's desires, which is most definitely not the case.

	12-03-2004 01:58									#187
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as far as who to have sex with.

far be it from me to judge others, but i simply cannot understand how some can have the concept of lovemaking divorced from the concept of passion divorced from the concept of love.

quote: I don't see one worse than the other. Many of the problems people run into is when they start sleeping around. Sure, it may not hurt a person as a divorce would, but what about abortion? That's the perspective that I have on this issue. Birth control fails, so people resort to abortions.

if you're not in a committed relationship with children, sleeping around hurts two people, who are presumably somewhat mature.
if you have children, sleep around, and it leads to a divorce, you hurt two somewhat mature people plus however many immature people who will be learning the behavior of their parents, and will be dealing with scars for a good portion of their lives. even ten years later, when they think they're over it.
if you have children, sleep around, and don't divorce, you still hurt the kids, but it's a powerful argument to making you not continue that destructive behaviour.

	12-03-2004 02:00									#188
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quote: Having sex without significant risk of disease transfer or unwanted birth. A hell of a lot more effective than trusting to human nature.

What if I told you there was a way to have both, without resorting to condoms?

	12-03-2004 02:02									#189
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What's wrong with condoms?

	12-03-2004 02:02									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What if I told you there was a way to have both, without resorting to condoms?

What if you showed it statically working... outside the Benaverse?

	12-03-2004 02:02									#191
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quote: Pledgers are at a greater risk of STDs and teen pregnncy. Why do Christians hate children so?

Bgs the question, that it is good for children to have intercourse.

Is it, Che? I thought you argued that one should wait until one is mature enough to handle intercourse.

	12-03-2004 02:03									#192
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Pregnancy and STDs are very unlikely if people are smart enough to use protection.

	12-03-2004 02:05									#193
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quote: What if you showed it statically working... outside the Benaverse?

Every time this method, when subjected to scientific scrutiny, it worked in preventing conception.

There have been tests done, and the method is free. You just need to be taught properly.

	12-03-2004 02:07									#194
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quote: Why is that breaking the spirit? The spirit of the pledge is to wait until marriage to have intercourse.

it makes marriage something other than what it should be: a ticket to sex. that's not what a marriage is about, period.
marriage is about love. love can exist without sex. passionate, non-platonic love can exist without sex. it really really really suck, but it can.

if people are getting married because they think they are in love, but really want to jump each others' bones, i personally think it's more damaging in the long run than if they knew exactly what it was that they were getting into.

those who pledge might not have to go through pre-cana.

	12-03-2004 02:11									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Every time this method, when subjected to scientific scrutiny, it worked in preventing conception. There have been tests done, and the method is free. You just need to be taught properly.

Then you'll have no difficulty in citing actual figures of success rates, then.

Last time I looked at these figures... pledges had significantly lower success rates than condom use.

	12-03-2004 02:11									#196
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quote: if people are getting married because they think they are in love, but really want to jump each others' bones, i personally think it's more damaging in the long run than if they knew exactly what it was that they were getting into.

Q Cubed:

Why then does Paul exhort Christians, that it is better to marry than burn?

One should have a desire to sleep with someone you want to marry, alongside the love you talk about. However, Paul thought it better for the couple to commit to each other than to burn with passion while unmarried.

No one who marries knows what they are getting themselves into. Fact of life. They can tip the odds in their favour, but the do not truly know beforehand.

	12-03-2004 02:13									#197
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quote: Then you'll have no difficulty in citing actual figures of success rates, then. Last time I looked at these figures... pledges had significantly lower success rates than condom use.

Oh, it's not pledges that I am referring to. Much more scientific research involved.

Ever hear of the Billings Ovulation Method?

http://www.billings-centre.ab.ca/

	12-03-2004 02:16									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Oh, it's not pledges that I am referring to. Much more scientific research involved. Ever hear of the Billings Ovulation Method? http://www.billings-centre.ab.ca/

Uh... where does it mention data on STD transmission rates?

	12-03-2004 02:20									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi and why shouldn't you wait? You're already gettin' some. Why marry at all?

So you admit that, as a pledger, sex is a driving force to be married? Thanks for proving my point.

quote: Let's see. A woman who wants to wait until marriage consenting to anal sex. Right, that's likely.

One pledger I knew certainly didn't object to a little bump 'n grind (non-coital) and give 'n take for oral sex.

She also had porn, liked sex games, and had a habit of grabbing a friend of mine's penis. She married a priest-in-training at 18; both of them were hard up.

Another one I knew couldn't stop talking about sex, and wanted to marry a marine (him 26, her 18). I don't know if they ever did. I think he backed off cuz she was too hard up. Cute tho', damn shame.

Another one just plain broke her pledge.

p.s. You guys added 4 ****in pages in 1 day!?

	12-03-2004 02:26									#200
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quote: Why then does Paul exhort Christians, that it is better to marry than burn? One should have a desire to sleep with someone you want to marry, alongside the love you talk about. However, Paul thought it better for the couple to commit to each other than to burn with passion while unmarried. No one who marries knows what they are getting themselves into. Fact of life. They can tip the odds in their favour, but the do not truly know beforehand.

the last part of that statement is true, about not knowing.

however, say they get married and jump each others' bones. nine months later, a mewling, stinking, drooling, and cute bald ball of flesh comes tumbling out, but by this time, the two have already decided that they don't like each other very much.

that little bundle of joy isn't going to be joyful for very long.

i'm not saying that they should have sex if they're not going to get married; i'm just saying that linking marriage to sex in that fashion is quite simply the wrong answer to the problem that is modern values surrounding sex and marriage.

sex shouldn't be viewed as a reward for marriage. it shouldn't be viewed as a priviledge. it shouldn't be viewed as a benefit. sex is what it is. it doesn't have meaning outside of a deeply committed, loving, permanent relationship, i.e., marriage. to do things without meaning...

	12-03-2004 02:27									#201
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dp

	12-03-2004 02:29									#202
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as far as the ovulation method... i read an article which showed that women can be fertile at times when the ovulation method said they shouldn't be. i'm looking for the link now.

	12-03-2004 03:01									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed as far as the ovulation method... i read an article which showed that women can be fertile at times when the ovulation method said they shouldn't be. i'm looking for the link now.

and sperms can survive for 7-10 days inside the uterus, which makes for a pretty damn short window between menustrual periods and the 'danger zone'.

Unless you don't mind a little blood on yer pecker...

	12-03-2004 03:30									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 99% of kids who do not pledge have intercourse before they are married.

whered you get that from?

	12-03-2004 03:38									#205
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Sex is fun
Fun is good
We should do good things

Ergo, sex is good, and we should all have sex. NOW!!!

	12-03-2004 03:47									#206
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quote: Uh... where does it mention data on STD transmission rates?

Read the method, and tell me why they would not need those figures.

	12-03-2004 03:48									#207
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quote: whered you get that from?

First post in the thread.

	12-03-2004 03:49									#208
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quote: i read an article which showed that women can be fertile at times when the ovulation method said they shouldn't be. i'm looking for the link now.

Again, the ovulation method deals with that.

Read the link more carefully.

	12-03-2004 03:50									#209
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My post was the best piece of reasoning I've ever done and you people are IGNORING IT???

	12-03-2004 03:51									#210
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What do you call a woman who uses the ovulation method?

Mother.

So it seems ben prefers emotionally stunted failed marriages to the "great evil" of pre-marital sex...