10-03-2004 22:15									#31
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Everyone I like seems to be hellbound. The insufferable ones seem to be the ones going to heaven. At least we'll be in good company.

	10-03-2004 23:10									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sava But yes, I'm going to hell. I just hope to secure a position in management.

It's not all it's cracked up to be.

	10-03-2004 23:19									#33
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I bet the abortion rate is higher for those who take the pledge...

	10-03-2004 23:22									#34
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quote: Also missed the part where the kids got married earlier. In my experience that's usually done to justify having sex yet fulfilling their pledges.

And what is wrong with marrying earlier?

Better than sleeping around, isn't it?

I think that is hypocritical, condemning those who get married early to keep their pledge, while condemning those who do not keep their pledge, as evidence how pledges do not work.

	10-03-2004 23:24									#35
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quote: Yet the teens who had taken pledges were less likely to know they had an infection, raising the risk of their transmitting it to other people,

This assumes that they will not keep their pledge. If they keep their pledge, then they should not have an std to worry about.

	10-03-2004 23:26									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And what is wrong with marrying earlier?

They aren't prepared emotionally to handle the responsibilities of marriage and aren't experienced enoug as adults to know whether they are making the right decisions. Early marriages are more likely to result in divorce than those who wait.

quote: Better than sleeping around, isn't it?

Not really, no.

	10-03-2004 23:26									#37
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quote: And what is wrong with marrying earlier? Better than sleeping around, isn't it?

There is an age where it is better to sleep around than to get married. The age where you're too young to know with whom you can commit for the rest of your life. Hasty marriage is the main reason for sivorces, as shown by the great part of divorces that occur in the first years of marriage.

I'd take a period of sleeping around any day over a hasty marriage resulting in divorce.

	10-03-2004 23:27									#38
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quote: Unless, of cource, they marry someone carrying a std.

Then that's not the fault of pledges, to consider those who do not pledge.

quote: Using the pill has indeed a very limited effect when it comes to stopping the spead of std. (edit: Unless you consider offspring to be a form of std...)

Just quoting the position of the birth control folks.

Of course, the pill does not help with stds, that is why you need to use a condom along with a pill.

It's crazy I tell you. All those precautions, yet if the condom breaks you are ****ed.

	10-03-2004 23:27									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And what is wrong with marrying earlier? Better than sleeping around, isn't it? I think that is hypocritical, condemning those who get married early to keep their pledge, while condemning those who do not keep their pledge, as evidence how pledges do not work.

I don't have a problem with people marrying early (well, actually I do, in that they're likely too immature).
I do have a problem with people getting married only to satisfy their craving for sex. Not much commitment there.

	10-03-2004 23:28									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi This assumes that they will not keep their pledge.

It's a pretty safe assumption, since most don't. Children who recieve proper sex-education delay sexual initiation longer than those who receive abstinance only education or none at all. They are less likely to get pregnant or have an STD.

Christians are anti-children.

	10-03-2004 23:31									#41
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quote: They aren't prepared emotionally to handle the responsibilities of marriage and aren't experienced enoug as adults to know whether they are making the right decisions.

So why do we allow them to get married? I would argue against all of your points, that if they are old enough to be having intercourse, they ought also be old enough for marriage.

quote: Early marriages are more likely to result in divorce than those who wait.

Among those who pledge? I would argue the opposite, that those who pledge and marry early would be less likely to divorce than those who do not pledge and also marry.

Emphasis is placed on those who pledge with developing the relationship first.

quote: Not really, no.

So divorce is worse than sleeping around? That's an interesting perspective.

	10-03-2004 23:32									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Christians are anti-children*

*except the 1 in 25 Catholic priests accused of being too pro-children

	10-03-2004 23:34									#43
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quote: It's a pretty safe assumption, since most don't. Children who recieve proper sex-education delay sexual initiation longer than those who receive abstinance only education or none at all.

So the goal here is to make them wait a year longer to have intercourse?

Sorry, that is not acceptable.

Pledging, if you look at my first post, has a big effect on whether or not kids wait for marriage, which ought to be the goal, not 'waiting until you feel ready' which just means that if you are horny enough, you should go for it.

	10-03-2004 23:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So divorce is worse than sleeping around? That's an interesting perspective.

I take you've never been thru a divorce?

	10-03-2004 23:36									#45
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quote: I do have a problem with people getting married only to satisfy their craving for sex. Not much commitment there.

Sure there is, if you believe that you should love those whom you sleep with.

Look at the perspective of someone who pledges. You've loved someone for years before getting married, yet have not slept with them. Don't you think that when you finally get married, you are going to look forward to sleeping with that person for the rest of your life?

	10-03-2004 23:37									#46
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quote: I take you've never been thru a divorce?

I have not done either, so my biases are equal.

	10-03-2004 23:39									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Pledging, if you look at my first post, has a big effect on whether or not kids wait for marriage, which ought to be the goal, not 'waiting until you feel ready' which just means that if you are horny enough, you should go for it.

So the only point is to get married, no matter the reasoning? For one decrying gay marriage as devaluing the institution, that is an interesting perspective.

Oh, wait, should I have not pointed that out?

	10-03-2004 23:40									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I have not done either, so my biases are equal.

And I've been thru both, so I speak from experience, as you do not.

	10-03-2004 23:40									#49
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quote: I really can't take seriously the idea that God cares about teenagers having sex.

Why should he care about anyone having intercourse, eh?

Why should he care if you rob your neighbour, or beat the hobo on the street?

Why should he care about anything that we do?

	10-03-2004 23:41									#50
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quote: So divorce is worse than sleeping around? That's an interesting perspective.

Definitely. Divorce often involves a difficult legal process, a grave emotional scar for the divorcees and a terrible, often traumatic, emotional scars for the children if there are any.

A divorce is infinitely worse than an ordinary break up, and I'm not even talking about an agreement that the one night sex session will have no followings (see just how scarred Self Biased is after havung acknowledged he won't see Delilah anymore? )

	10-03-2004 23:43									#51
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quote: So the only point is to get married, no matter the reasoning? For one decrying gay marriage as devaluing the institution, that is an interesting perspective.

No, read again what I said.

quote: And I've been thru both, so I speak from experience, as you do not.

So then how can you sympathise with the pledgers? You do not share their situation.

	10-03-2004 23:44									#52
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quote: A divorce is infinitely worse than an ordinary break up, and I'm not even talking about an agreement that the one night sex session will have no followings (see just how scarred Self Biased is after havung acknowledged he won't see Delilah anymore?

You might have a case, if I did not believe that the two are connected, that one begets the other. In seperating love from intercourse, then you also erode one of the bonds in marriage.

	10-03-2004 23:46									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, read again what I said.

I read what you said. The result is that kids get married for the wrong reasons.

quote: So then how can you sympathise with the pledgers? You do not share their situation.

I've known quite a few, and whenever they met someone they really liked, they wanted to get married ASAP so they could justify desiring sex.

	10-03-2004 23:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should he care about anyone having intercourse, eh? Why should he care if you rob your neighbour, or beat the hobo on the street? Why should he care about anything that we do?

Ben, I'm curious. What precisely makes pre-marital sex immoral?

	10-03-2004 23:48									#55
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quote: You might have a case, if I did not believe that the two are connected, that one begets the other. In seperating love from intercourse, then you also erode one of the bonds in marriage.

So what about those people who rush their marriage for the sake of sex? What about those people who pledge to avoid going to hell, rather than pledging for the sake of linking sex with their one eternal love?

	10-03-2004 23:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You might have a case, if I did not believe that the two are connected, that one begets the other. In seperating love from intercourse, then you also erode one of the bonds in marriage.

Which is what happens to pledgers.

	10-03-2004 23:48									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Ben, I'm curious. What precisely makes pre-marital sex immoral?

The Bible.

	10-03-2004 23:51									#58
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I'm actually looking for something a little more explicit than just "the Bible". Perhaps Ben could quote some scripture detailing where it says God frowns on all forms of pre-marital sex, or perhaps simply explain why God might think that it's a problem.

	10-03-2004 23:53									#59
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quote: What precisely makes pre-marital sex immoral?

1 Corinthians 6:16

"Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' "

	10-03-2004 23:54									#60
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quote: Which is what happens to pledgers.

That they only sleep with the one they love?

If so, I agree.