11-03-2004 01:22									#121
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quote: Virgins make the worst lovers. They don't have a clue what they're doing. It's painful, awkward, and not very much fun to have sex with a virgin.

So why do some men look for virgins in the first place, even if they are not virgins themselves?

Something about tightness that I keep hearing about?

So it can't be that bad.

	11-03-2004 01:22									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And with each method, you also have an increased chance that people will not use them properly. Theretically, you would get 98.4, but in actuality, you would likely do worse than with just one method.

You fail to realize that the 25% failure rate of the individual methods INCLUDES the outcomes of people using them improperly. Otherwise, the 25% failure rate would only be 5%.

	11-03-2004 01:24									#123
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quote: The reverse is easily demonstratable.

Well then.

I throw down the gauntlet to your enlightened opinion.

Please show the evidence you have, since I don't know how to find what I am looking for.

	11-03-2004 01:24									#124
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Because virgins don't know those guys are selfish lovers and are less likely to complain when the man fails to fully satisify them. Tightness only comes into the equation after there's been a baby's head in the vagina.

	11-03-2004 01:27									#125
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quote: Because virgins don't know those guys are selfish lovers and are less likely to complain when the man fails to fully satisify them.

So then experience ain't all it's cracked up to be, eh?

	11-03-2004 01:30									#126
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quote: You fail to realize that the 25% failure rate of the individual methods INCLUDES the outcomes of people using them improperly. Otherwise, the 25% failure rate would only be 5%.

And what do they do? Add up all the failure rates? That's not proper statistical analysis.

Statistically, adding complexity exponentially reduces efficiency.

	11-03-2004 01:32									#127
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quote: Can != will. Is this kind of intellectual dishonesty rampant in the Benaverse?

They don't work.

Look at my source on Uganda.

If they worked, why do we see condom use increasing HIV infection rates?

	11-03-2004 01:36									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 1 Corinthians 6:16 "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' "

Sounds like a primitive description of the fusion of egg and sperm to form zygote.

	11-03-2004 01:37									#129
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OH, Ben, Ben, ben

From YOUR OWN SOURCE:

quote: However, in many African nations condoms aren’t looked upon kindly: there are a variety of urban legends that circulate in some regions that condoms are either ethnic cleansing tools or actually spread HIV themselves. (During the Cold War, the Soviet KGB spread "disinformation" that the United States created the AIDS virus to kill off Africans.) "Ugandans really never took to condoms," Dr. Vinand Nantulya, an infectious disease advisor to Ugandan leader Yoweri Museveni, told The New Republic.

What YOUR OWN SOURCE says is that Africans distrust condoms, NOT due to facts about their effectiveness (we have plenty of studies in the US and Europe to show their effecitveness), but due to misinformation and ignorance.

	11-03-2004 01:38									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, that's not what the passage is referring to. Paul cites Christ, Matthew 19:4-6 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[1] and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[2] ? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

An interesting warning about cloning

	11-03-2004 01:39									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Theretically, you would get 98.4, but in actuality, you would likely do worse than with just one method.

This is one of the dumbest assertions you've made. You think that if people use a combination of three methods, they'd do worse than using just one? This is sig material!

	11-03-2004 01:40									#132
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quote: So then experience ain't all it's cracked up to be, eh?

The experience of the victim is indeed a bad point for a selfish lover

	11-03-2004 01:41									#133
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quote: Sounds like a primitive description of the fusion of egg and sperm to form zygote.

Why then the reference to divorce? If it is just referring to this union, why would divorce split this apart?

Uniting with someone through intercourse forms a physical and emotional bond. This bond, in both forms, refers to how the two become one flesh, both physically, and emotionally.

To put it another way, her pains become yours.

	11-03-2004 01:42									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi They don't work. Look at my source on Uganda. If they worked, why do we see condom use increasing HIV infection rates?

First, the source is from an INTERN from a rather biased organization.

Second, as GePap pointed out, the increased infection rates, as pointed out in your source, came from people not using condoms, not from condoms failing.

Deeper into the Benaverse we delve! Wooooooosh!

	11-03-2004 01:43									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well then. I throw down the gauntlet to your enlightened opinion. Please show the evidence you have, since I don't know how to find what I am looking for.

There are 77,788,917 examples of children being at home dependents in last years taxes.

Can you produce any statistic justifying your stance... say, even 250,000 examples... less than a 10th of 1 percent of the population?

Even then that would be a very tenuous support for an argument.

	11-03-2004 01:44									#136
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quote: You think that if people use a combination of three methods, they'd do worse than using just one? This is sig material!

More likelihood for user error.

Feel free to quote me, but also cite what I say about increasing complexity.

	11-03-2004 01:46									#137
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quote: The emphasis on abstinence in Uganda’s program is unique. In other nations with high HIV infections, such as Zimbabwe and Botswana, condoms have been promoted as the answer to ending the AIDS crisis. In Botswana, 38 percent of pregnant women were HIV positive last year, contrasted with 6.2 percent of Ugandan women.

Ignoring this passage, Boris?

just because one is an intern, does not make the argument untenable.

	11-03-2004 01:49									#138
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quote: Even then that would be a very tenuous support for an argument.

First of all, I only talk about teenagers, so many of the dependents will be young children.

Secondly, is one being a dependent necessarily show the responsibility of both parents?

Third, one is too many, according to my argument.

	11-03-2004 01:51									#139
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH An interesting warning about cloning

I was thinking more about trying to separate siamese twins....

	11-03-2004 01:51									#140
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quote: The experience of the victim is indeed a bad point for a selfish lover

So experience does not ensure that one will enjoy sex.

Look at it from my perspective. Would I not be the virgin, vunerable to others with more selfish motivations, if I were to follow the advice of Che, and others in this thread?

	11-03-2004 01:57									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ignoring this passage, Boris?

In both countries there is a belief that sleeping with a virgin will cure you of AIDs. I fail to see how this is an indictment of condoms.

[b]Ben,[/i] good lovers don't seek out virgins.

	11-03-2004 01:59									#142
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quote: Ben, good lovers don't seek out virgins.

No, I suppose they just wait for the virgins to come by themselves.

quote: I fail to see how this is an indictment of condoms.

It sure ain't an endorsement.

	11-03-2004 01:59									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ignoring this passage, Boris? just because one is an intern, does not make the argument untenable.

Nothing in that passage or in the entire article makes reference to condoms, when being used, as "not working."

Condoms DO work to prevent STD transmission and pregnancies, and they work most of the time. Asserting otherwise is both false and highly irresponsible.

	11-03-2004 02:01									#144
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The advice of Che and others is not for you to have sex. It is for you to learn and teach others about all aspects of sex. This would include condoms, birth control pills, vaginal foams, sponges, etc. including abstinence.

	11-03-2004 02:02									#145
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condoms have been promoted as the answer to ending the AIDS crisis. In Botswana, 38 percent of pregnant women were HIV positive last year, contrasted with 6.2 percent of Ugandan women.


Uganda is the ONLY nation to reduce AIDS transmission in Africa, and they reject condoms? I don't think that's a coincidence.

Condoms may reduce incidence, but they also increase risky behavior.

	11-03-2004 02:03									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi More likelihood for user error. Feel free to quote me, but also cite what I say about increasing complexity.

Sorry, but this is just another silly assertion on your part. Any statistical evidence that people who use multiple methods concurrently have higher rates of STD transmission or pregnancies over those who use just one method?

Under this logic, the more safety gear a person wears at a construction site, the more prone to injury he is because of "increased complexity."

	11-03-2004 02:04									#147
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quote: It is for you to learn and teach others about all aspects of sex. This would include condoms, birth control pills, vaginal foams, sponges, etc. including abstinence.

Yes, I must admit that approach is effective. It's like my science classes, where we discuss theories and why they were discarded in favour of ones that work.

So we would discuss condoms first, and then abstinence.

	11-03-2004 02:11									#148
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quote: Under this logic, the more safety gear a person wears at a construction site, the more prone to injury he is because of "increased complexity."

Depends also on how likely each item is to protect the user and how hard each one is to use.

Construction sites require hardhats and boots, so I fail to see how two items are nearly as complex as four.

Secondly, if one forgets a hardhat, it is immediately obvious to his workmates if he forgets the hat. The same is not true for birth control. A man has no way of knowing whether or not his partner has in fact used birth control.

	11-03-2004 02:12									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First of all, I only talk about teenagers, so many of the dependents will be young children. Secondly, is one being a dependent necessarily show the responsibility of both parents? Third, one is too many, according to my argument.

1) According to the survey of dependants in the US Census, there would be 24.7 million teenage dependants.

2) Its clear evidence of financial care-taking (your words) of those dependants by parents. You asked for evidence... now... Quid pro quo.


3) What do you mean by "according to my argument"?

Here was the flow of the argument...

quote: Ben> Maturity in my eyes often has little to do with age. I've seen teenagers take care of their parents. Che> That is not a normal or natural situation. This occurs only where the parents are unable or unwilling to fullfill their rolls. Ben> Not what should happen, but happens far too often these days.

I'm asking you to show significant numbers of these things happening... not in the Benaverse, but in demonstrable statistical form. Its not a problem or a "normal or natural situation" if you can only point to rare anecdotes as foundation.

Quid pro quo, Ben. Put up, or give up.

	11-03-2004 02:14									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ignoring this passage, Boris? just because one is an intern, does not make the argument untenable.

HELLO BEN, EARTH TO BEN!

If we follow the logic of your own source vis a vi condoms, then what is ebign said is that an emphasis on condom uage in Africa fails due to misinformation and ignorance when it comes to condoms, and thus condom based education is likely to underpreform-which is THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL POINT ON ABSTINANCE PLEDGES. Abstinance does have a 100% effectiveness-IF people do it correctly and understand what abstinance actually asks of them. If they do not, they will screw up and get adverse results.