13-03-2004 18:05									#421
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	13-03-2004 18:07									#422
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	13-03-2004 18:10									#423
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel wait a minute, this makes no sense. If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?

Maybe its because using the war on Iraq is a good way to get your Muslim followers to do as you ask. Using an invasion and occupation as a cite for a terrorist attack is much more effective than just saying "They don't like Muslims, lets kill them".

	13-03-2004 18:13									#424
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Safer does not implies more freedom. Of course, in communist times every aspect of the life was controlled by the soviets (or at least they tried to). In such kind of situation people is safer but their freedom is highly restricted.

I would even say that people weren't really safer in those countries, because the safety against ordinary crimes they won on the one hand they lost on the other hand because they were not safe at all from actions of the security authorities....lack of freedoms means also lack of safety in this aspect.

	13-03-2004 19:07									#425
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quote: Maybe its because using the war on Iraq is a good way to get your Muslim followers to do as you ask. Using an invasion and occupation as a cite for a terrorist attack is much more effective than just saying "They don't like Muslims, lets kill them".

If they're your followers, they'll do what you want, anyway. Plus, I am left with the impression that noone is fooling anyone. OBL and co. really believe in what they preach.

In any case, your line of thought implies that the bottleneck is recruiting people to the al-qaeda cells. It ain't and it never was.

	13-03-2004 20:15									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel If they're your followers, they'll do what you want, anyway.

I don't know about that, true to a degree certainly, but citing great evils can whip up a fervour and increase commitment to a cause. Also if you want to sway more moderate Muslims to your line of thinking, using Iraq is a good techique. The people he reaches may not agree with his terrorist actions, but they may become more hostile to the US and its allies. It may even be feeding of the anti-war coallitions in Europe and America, reinforcing the notion to muslims that the war was wrong.

quote: Plus, I am left with the impression that noone is fooling anyone. OBL and co. really believe in what they preach.

You can preach what you believe, and you can believe what you preach. If they realise something expedites their cause its not hard to believe that they will incorporate it into their doctrine.

You could also ask, why would OBL not kick up a fuss about the US lead war in Iraq. It was an attack on a Muslim population by a Christian force. Isn't that enough to piss off AQ. The conclusion then is to be angry at the Christian nations that carried out the invasion.

	13-03-2004 21:37									#427
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Assuming this was al Qaeda, I would presume that the average Spainard would burn in rage against al Qaeda and not against Aznar. If so, the left's trying to pin blame on Aznar will only result in anger against them as well.

	13-03-2004 21:52									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Assuming this was al Qaeda, I would presume that the average Spainard would burn in rage against al Qaeda and not against Aznar. If so, the left's trying to pin blame on Aznar will only result in anger against them as well.

I wouldn't make that assumption Ned. The mood in Europe in general seems to be such that when the violence in Iraq spills over to involve Europeans in any way the tendency is to blame the US. If a connection between ETA and al Qaeda can be proven then I'm certain that the anger of the people will become directed at OBL as well as ETA, because then he will be seen as interfereing in Spansih politics.

	13-03-2004 22:17									#429
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel wait a minute, this makes no sense. If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?

Azazel, if this was serious I know you can do better than this. If I'm mad at the US because they funded Pinochet, does this mean that I was an agent for Allende?

	13-03-2004 22:22									#430
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Dr. Strangelove, if you are right, I would lose all respect for Europeans. They would be beneath contempt.

	13-03-2004 22:26									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich It's not BLAME. Blame is moral responsibility. Causal responsibility is pointless - so their actions were part of the causal link to the attack. So what? Why are you saying it?

Again, it is unclear how my statements directly relate to the Spanish victims. This is why I used 9/11 as a better example.

The causal responsibility was linked to my example of the guy who walks into a deathtrap even though he knew there was one. His action was nether morally wrong or right, but it was stupid.

In politics, you have to consider the real world and not some theories about intrinsic morale. Thus, even though what you're doing is right, or simply neutral, you have to take into account the consequences. In this case, the 'blame' could go for idiocy, and, depending on moral theories, it may also become moral.

If what you are doing is wrong, and that the direct consequences of what you did are wrong actions committed by others, then you are in part responsible for the wrong reaction to your wrong action. This is pretty much universally accepted, AFAIK.

	13-03-2004 22:28									#432
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Dr. Strangelove, if you are right, I would lose all respect for Europeans. They would be beneath contempt.

What's good with Europeans is that they want their buddies to be neither Bush or Osama, but... somewhere in the middle. But for a president who says that you're with us or against us, that's a difficult proposition to tackle, isn't it?

	13-03-2004 22:30									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Again, it is unclear how my statements directly relate to the Spanish victims.

Then why are you trolling in a thread about Spain?

	13-03-2004 22:33									#434
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The latest Reuters report says that the government of Spain is now "99%" certain that the culprits were muslim extremists.

	13-03-2004 22:41									#435
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then why are you trolling in a thread about Spain?

I felt like discussing 'morality and terrorism', and how it could relate to this particular case, and possibly other cases (9/11).

	13-03-2004 22:54									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I felt like discussing 'morality and terrorism', and how it could relate to this particular case,

Then stop whining about people applying your statements to to the Spanish victims.

	13-03-2004 22:57									#437
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris What's good with Europeans is that they want their buddies to be neither Bush or Osama, but... somewhere in the middle. But for a president who says that you're with us or against us, that's a difficult proposition to tackle, isn't it?

Oncle Boris, I think you speak of the scum left like yourself.

	13-03-2004 23:27									#438
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then stop whining about people applying your statements to to the Spanish victims.

Applying it fallaciously, that's it.

	13-03-2004 23:27									#439
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oncle Boris, I think you speak of the scum left like yourself.

Huh? You really believe in that "Bush or Osama" BS?

	14-03-2004 00:23									#440
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: OB is unquestionably right about the moral responsibility thing. It is not a zero sum game. People can bear partial responsibility for bad things others do to them by being negligent or engaging in criminal acts themselves. This takes no blame away from the perpetrator and most often the kind of blame attributed to the victim is a different kind of blame. Go look up the other thread if you disagree. I managed to get Ming and MtG to agree with me, so I must have been especially plausible that day. It's not BLAME. Blame is moral responsibility. Causal responsibility is pointless - so their actions were part of the causal link to the attack. So what? Why are you saying it?

Not what I said. I said blame in the sense of moral responsibility is not a zero sum game.

	14-03-2004 00:33									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I wouldn't make that assumption Ned. The mood in Europe in general seems to be such that when the violence in Iraq spills over to involve Europeans in any way the tendency is to blame the US.

Close but not accurate 100%. Unless the US had forced a country to participate in the invasion then the blame could fall on the head of the PM of said country.

	14-03-2004 00:33									#442
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Applying it fallaciously, that's it.

LOTM already explained why you have so many people biting at the troll.

	14-03-2004 00:33									#443
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First arrest have been made: three maroccans and four Hindu's(?).

This is from a press conference made by the (spanish)Minister of Interiour, according to Dutch radio.

ETA is getting highly unlikely...

	14-03-2004 00:36									#444
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Such massive death made ETA not likely from the begining no matter how the gov wanted to present it.
The gov. is obviously a bit worried what the epople would think.

The spanish who say the bombs which fell on Iraq (and killed inocents for no puprose of combating terorism) exploded in Madrid is the exact kind of thought the spanish gov. would rather not have.

	14-03-2004 00:54									#445
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Quite so, but it can't be denied in the long run...the government itself is revealing more info about these arrests and so on.

quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by germanos First arrest have been made: three maroccans and four Hindu's(?).

Indians. It's just that the original Spanish source tried to be PC (and failed, since "Indio" is academically the correct term for people from India, even in Spanish, even if not everyone knows that).....

quote: ETA is getting highly unlikely...

Unlikely indeed, but let's wait and see what these little birds sing (if anything)....

	14-03-2004 00:58									#446
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quote: Originally posted by germanos First arrest have been made: three maroccans and four Hindu's(?). This is from a press conference made by the (spanish)Minister of Interiour, according to Dutch radio.

I wonder what people who accused the Minister of hiding information and said that he would say nothing until Monday will say now...

quote: ETA is getting highly unlikely...

I still think that ETA probably offered support somehow.

	14-03-2004 01:12									#447
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quote: wait a minute, this makes no sense. If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?

Would that be why there weren't any recent terracts in places like Indonesia and Turkey? Al-Qaeda is certainly not after helping out the Ba'athists, but to kick out the infidel occupiers of Muslim lands.

quote: First arrest have been made: three maroccans and four Hindu's(?).

Hindus? Do you mean Indians?

	14-03-2004 01:23									#448
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quote: The spanish who say the bombs which fell on Iraq (and killed inocents for no puprose of combating terorism) exploded in Madrid is the exact kind of thought the spanish gov. would rather not have.

And we all know this is crap in the least.

The Moroccans were said to be related to a Moroccan extremist group, that has already been known to attack Spanish citizens in Morocco. I don't think it is connected with Al Qaeda.

quote: The suspects "could be related to Moroccan extremist groups," the minister said. "But we should not rule out anything. Police are still investigating all avenues. This opens an important avenue."

quote: The attack's lethal coordination and timing — 10 explosions within 15 minutes — suggested al-Qaida. But the compressed dynamite used in the backpack bombs is an explosive favored by the Basque separatist group ETA.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ombings_arrests

	14-03-2004 01:30									#449
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The arrests apparently were made over suspicions of the Moroccans and Indians being involved with falsification of a mobile phone card found by the unexploded bomb. No information at this point is given that they are suspected of being connected to the actual bombings.

	14-03-2004 01:30									#450
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About the Hindus:

quote: FIVE people, including three Moroccans, had been arrested over the Madrid bombings, Spain's interior minister announced today, as grieving relatives said their final farewells to many of the 200 victims. Two Spaniards of Hindu origin were also being questioned, but were not expected to be arrested, he said.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story...3%255E2,00.html