14-03-2004 01:38									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Lets find those who did this and execute them all on site. Nobody who did this deserves to live! This is an abhorrent terrorist attack of hideous proportions! If we ever find who did this, they better consider bringing back the death penalty. Now I have to call my family there. I swear... if anything happened to any of my family... Consider my opinion changed on autonomy for the Basque region. Suspend it all and declare martial law.

You really are a total and utter idiot.

	14-03-2004 01:40									#452
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc You really are a total and utter idiot.

You are the total utter moron here, not me. You cannot even formulate arguments half decently. Okay, people, tell me who is in control of this DL?

	14-03-2004 01:45									#453
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Stop trying to politicize this.

First you say install martial law, and then in response to another poster you say this.

There is no logic to be found here.

	14-03-2004 01:49									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc First you say install martial law, and then in response to another poster you say this. There is no logic to be found here.

First off you idiot, I was in the heat of the moment. I say some things I shouldn't of, especially when one of my good friends back in Madrid was injured in the explosion. They said he was really close to death. Now you lack a brain and logic. You never had logic to begin with. I defeated you in that debate about Spain's economy and I will defeat you in this one too.

	14-03-2004 01:52									#455
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I read this thread all 15 pages of it. I was hoping for a mass ban around page 14!

Thats 20 minutes of my life Ill never get back. Screw you guys!

Anyway. All I know its gonna Al-queda. This is there mark.

	14-03-2004 01:56									#456
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Tripledoc is joining the debate- but I wonder if things can get any more heated?

	14-03-2004 02:00									#457
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Tripledoc-stop spaming and trolling Fez.

	14-03-2004 02:07									#458
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I defeated you in that debate about Spain's economy and I will defeat you in this one too.

So what is this debate about. Is it about you wanting to install martial law, or is it whether you are an idiot.

As far as I can see you have rescinded on the first demand. So that leaves whether you are an idiot.

	14-03-2004 02:12									#459
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quote: Azazel, if this was serious I know you can do better than this. If I'm mad at the US because they funded Pinochet, does this mean that I was an agent for Allende?

You don't understand what I was saying. I am saying that the real reason Spain was attacked isn't because it supported the war in Iraq.

quote: I don't know about that, true to a degree certainly, but citing great evils can whip up a fervour and increase commitment to a cause. Also if you want to sway more moderate Muslims to your line of thinking, using Iraq is a good techique. The people he reaches may not agree with his terrorist actions, but they may become more hostile to the US and its allies. It may even be feeding of the anti-war coallitions in Europe and America, reinforcing the notion to muslims that the war was wrong.

You see, you mix two different things. I certainly think that it was done in Spain in order to create an impression that it's due to the war in Iraq, as a revenge of sorts, and to give more support to the anti-war coalition, and shatter more the unity between europeans, and the USA in the war against terror.

It wasn't however done in Spain to justify the attack. The people who have done it would've done it anywhere else, if ordered. They are well-indoctrinated, but aren't just confused teenagers, that need swaying. but have a solid view on the world and what they must do, and why they do it.


Why do you think there haven't been any Al-Qaeda attacks in Israel? And none were prevented, as well? After all, Israel is little satan, and this is recited over and over and over at all times, but no attacks were carried out, or attempted. The reason is that this would get Israel out of it's relative isolation.

They have a clear global strategy. And while their end goals are completely delusional, they operate thoughtfully, and soberly.

Oh, and "the people don't agree with his terrorist actions" is a crock of ****. at best, the ordinary people are ambivalent, and among the educated youth ( his audience) there is overwhelming support.

quote: You can preach what you believe, and you can believe what you preach. If they realise something expedites their cause its not hard to believe that they will incorporate it into their doctrine. You could also ask, why would OBL not kick up a fuss about the US lead war in Iraq. It was an attack on a Muslim population by a Christian force. Isn't that enough to piss off AQ. The conclusion then is to be angry at the Christian nations that carried out the invasion.

Again, you're right at the superficial explanation, but not in the core of the issue. they are not trying to sway arab public opinion behind them. they target public is already in their pockets. they attempt to interfere with western inter-governmental politics.

	14-03-2004 02:16									#460
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc LOTM already explained why you have so many people biting at the troll.

Just think about it twice before biting next time. Then if you want to discuss do it with arguments.

	14-03-2004 02:16									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You don't understand what I was saying. I am saying that the real reason Spain was attacked isn't because it supported the war in Iraq.

Oh, OK.

	14-03-2004 02:18									#462
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Tripledoc-stop spaming and trolling Fez.

Sure. People want to destroy democracy, and when one calls them on it, you are spamming.

I think that if a person wants to reinstate the death penalty and martial law, then it is within one's right to call them names. Words never hurt anyone, except perhaps very narcisistic persons, who think very highly of themselves.

But if Fez is such a person then I suppose I should apologize. But would he apologize to people who are injustly murdered by the state? I think not. Would he think twice about the fact that this is what the terrorists wants. Again I think not.

	14-03-2004 02:28									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc So what is this debate about. Is it about you wanting to install martial law, or is it whether you are an idiot. As far as I can see you have rescinded on the first demand. So that leaves whether you are an idiot.

You are the idiot around here. Use your brain. I was pissed off about these terrorist attacks, and that later turned into sadness. If you know anything about human emotions you would know this.. or are you just a bot? You are nothing more than a fool.

quote: I think that if a person wants to reinstate the death penalty and martial law, then it is within one's right to call them names.

I support the death penalty for those who committed these heinous acts of mass murder. The martial law thing was said when I was extremely angry at what happened.

quote: But if Fez is such a person then I suppose I should apologize. But would he apologize to people who are injustly murdered by the state? I think not. Would he think twice about the fact that this is what the terrorists wants. Again I think not.

You're a narcisstic person. You are full of yourself. You cannot even formulate an argument properly. You should stay out of this thread because you are doing nothing but disgracing the memories of those who were killed almost instantously. You have no regard for human life. You have no regard for the Spanish people. You have no regard for those who have been hurt emotionally by this attack, me including. You are nothing but a narcisstic know-it-all disgrace of a human being.

	14-03-2004 02:28									#464
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel wait a minute, this makes no sense. If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?

Because Osama and other fundamentalists try to take advantage of the Iraq war by playing the avengers of all muslims in this "war of the evil crusaders against islam" how they'd put it.
Bin Laden is mad at everybody. Germany and France aren't safe of Al-Quaeda attacks either but iraq-war participants are a more juicy target because in the muslim world attacks on them can count with more sympathy.

	14-03-2004 02:39									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Because Osama and other fundamentalists try to take advantage of the Iraq war by playing the avengers of all muslims in this "war of the evil crusaders against islam" how they'd put it. Bin Laden is mad at everybody. Germany and France aren't safe of Al-Quaeda attacks either but iraq-war participants are a more juicy target because in the muslim world attacks on them can count with more sympathy.

Though apparently some of the more simple minded posters on this forum can't seem to grasp that simple piece of logic...

	14-03-2004 02:44									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You are the idiot around here. Use your brain. I was pissed off about these terrorist attacks, and that later turned into sadness. If you know anything about human emotions you would know this.. or are you just a bot? You are nothing more than a fool.

And now you are pissed of again, apparently.

quote: I support the death penalty for those who committed these heinous acts of mass murder. The martial law thing was said when I was extremely angry at what happened.

And how would the death penalty help. Oh I see if someone belives strongly in the death penalty all they have to do is blow up some bombs. Then it will be reinstated.

quote: You're a narcisstic person. You are full of yourself. You cannot even formulate an argument properly. You should stay out of this thread because you are doing nothing but disgracing the memories of those who were killed almost instantously. You have no regard for human life. You have no regard for the Spanish people. You have no regard for those who have been hurt emotionally by this attack, me including. You are nothing but a narcisstic know-it-all disgrace of a human being.

Because I don't support martial law and the death peanlty? How is that inhumane?

	14-03-2004 02:46									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc And now you are pissed of again, apparently.

I am... I been pretty moody.. angry.. at the terrorists for doing this. Upset and sad for those who perished.

quote: Oh I see if someone belives strongly in the death penalty all they have to do is blow up some bombs. Then it will be reinstated.

You're a moron.

quote: Because I don't support martial law and the death peanlty? How is that inhumane?

I don't support martial law, you nescient fool. I just was really pissed when I said that. I didn't mean it. In fact I totally support the Basque people in their autonomy. I support the death penalty because it is a way to carry out justice.

	14-03-2004 02:49									#468
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quote: Because Osama and other fundamentalists try to take advantage of the Iraq war by playing the avengers of all muslims in this "war of the evil crusaders against islam" how they'd put it. Bin Laden is mad at everybody. Germany and France aren't safe of Al-Quaeda attacks either but iraq-war participants are a more juicy target because in the muslim world attacks on them can count with more sympathy.

Apparently. you haven't read my post. Bin Laden isn't some sort of drooling pitbull looking someone to attack. He has a strategy. Winning support? I don't see how such an attack would in any way, positive or negative influence the common ME person's perception on Bin Laden, esp. with the involvement in Iraq of countries besides UK and US getting almost zero airtime in the arab world. This is intended to make an effect on the public in Europe.

	14-03-2004 02:50									#469
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Argh, Poly ate my reply.

Azazel, in principle I don't disagree with you. I admit that you are in a position to understand the situation far better than I. That said I still think there is still reason to assume AQ is taking into account the muslim population and what their views and reactions will be to the targets that they choose.

I question your strong statement that all muslims are at best ambivalent to the terrorist attacks.

quote: they attempt to interfere with western inter-governmental politics

I'm following that through to a conclusion. Attacking Spain (or any other coallition member) makes the Western populace, especially Europe, see that aiding the US will lead to them becoming targets. Governments in turn will choose not to assist US because of their own populations fears of being attacked. This is acheivable only because the war in Iraq was not presented as a united front. The net result is that the US loses allies in any future operations in the Middle East. And that leads back to you original question. "If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?".

	14-03-2004 02:51									#470
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They are being targetted anyways by terrorists, whether they support the US or not. You think the terrorists give a damn who they hit in the west? They would hit any country... even a country like France who opposed the war.

	14-03-2004 02:52									#471
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But it must be ETA!

Apparently they've been recruiting in Morocco and India - both such obvious strongholds of Basque support!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3509212.stm

BTW Azazel, why are you posting pics of arabs raising their right hands - what ARE you trying to say?

	14-03-2004 03:09									#472
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I support the death penalty because it is a way to carry out justice.

The Three Laws of Robotics.

First Law:
A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

Second Law:
A robot must obey orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

Third Law:
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

As can be seen from this there is no room for the death penalty here.

So even though robots have no emotions, they are in fact more humane than humans. It is unreflected emotions which make humans act in an inhumane manner.

	14-03-2004 03:09									#473
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quote: Azazel, in principle I don't disagree with you. I admit that you are in a position to understand the situation far better than I.

I actually never claimed it. The mere fact that I live in the middle east doesn't give me any superiority. It's only facts that one can bring into the argument that matter.

quote: That said I still think there is still reason to assume AQ is taking into account the muslim population and what their views and reactions will be to the targets that they choose.

certainly. I just don't think that it would matter to an average person in the ME if, say, Germany was bombed.

quote: I question your strong statement that all muslims are at best ambivalent to the terrorist attacks.

note: I wasn't talking about the muslims in the world, generally. I don't have the knowledge about that to make that or another judgement. I am talking about the average person in the arab world. In the case of the youth, it's a done deal. But in the case of the average arab person, It's that automatic feeling of sympathy with your people, that raw nationalism, that plays a role. I will commit a fallacy, and use personal experience. Never have I seen an arab muslim admitting that his nation has ever committed a wrongdoing on the international arena. In fact, I challenge you to find an arab muslim intellectual that would agree that there were wrongdoings against other people. The Western countries have grown out of this complete self-righteousness, but this is rather rare outside of the west.

quote: I'm following that through to a conclusion. Attacking Spain (or any other coallition member) makes the Western populace, especially Europe, see that aiding the US will lead to them becoming targets. Governments in turn will choose not to assist US because of their own populations fears of being attacked. This is acheivable only because the war in Iraq was not presented as a united front. The net result is that the US loses allies in any future operations in the Middle East. And that leads back to you original question. "If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?".

It seems that we have a misunderstanding, because this is exactly my POV. But this isn't really saying that "Spain was attacked because it joined the war in Iraq", but the truth is that that's what they want you to think.

	14-03-2004 03:12									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The Three Laws of Robotics. First Law: A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. Second Law: A robot must obey orders given it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. Third Law: A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law. As can be seen from this there is no room for the death penalty here. So even though robots have no emotions, they are in fact more humane than humans. It is unreflected emotions which make humans act in an inhumane manner.

	14-03-2004 03:17									#475
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quote: You think the terrorists give a damn who they hit in the west? They would hit any country... even a country like France who opposed the war.

Do you know that for a fact, or are you making a sweeping generalization ?

	14-03-2004 03:21									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Just watching the TV, I think they may have found some Arbaic language Koranic Verse tapes with the attackers...

I wouldnot put too much meaning into this as it was too easy found so most likely than anti-Islamist group planet it. It also can be a new Basque Terrorist Group at work which have no connection to ETA.

	14-03-2004 03:22									#477
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quote: BTW Azazel, why are you posting pics of arabs raising their right hands - what ARE you trying to say?

Why bring ethnicity into this? These are muslim fundy scum. This is just another pic to the series "Islamism is the fascism of the 21st century".

	14-03-2004 03:29									#478
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News reports that the Spanish authorities have arrested 3 Algerian and 2 'Indians' based on a suspuscious bag found on one of the trains

I'm guessing that they're not members of ETA

	14-03-2004 03:32									#479
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I actually never claimed it. The mere fact that I live in the middle east doesn't give me any superiority. It's only facts that one can bring into the argument that matter.

I was basically saying I am largely ignorant of the ME through personal apathy to the situation. What I know comes through headline news media every so often, and I (rightly or wrongly) assumed that you would personally know more due to the Palestinian issues effecting your country on a daily basis.

quote: It seems that we have a misunderstanding, because this is exactly my POV. But this isn't really saying that "Spain was attacked because it joined the war in Iraq", but the truth is that that's what they want you to think.

I agree we have a misunderstanding. Its hard to convey ideas about such a complex issues in such short posts. Each of us will fill in the gaps with supposition.

	14-03-2004 03:32									#480
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: BTW Azazel, why are you posting pics of arabs raising their right hands - what ARE you trying to say? [quote]Why bring ethnicity into this?

Well are they arabs or are they not!?

I could be wrong but they look like arabs to me.

You posted the picture, not me. I wasn't the one saying anything about ethnicity, you're the one that brought it up.

quote: These are muslim fundy scum. This is just another pic to the series "Islamism is the fascism of the 21st century".

Aha, they're fascists - for a minute I thought someone had asked them "hands up who thinks Zionism is the fascism of the 21st century"

Works both ways, brother...