13-03-2004 07:07									#391
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Have you read all my posts? Causal responsibility can indeed stay amoral (read my deathtrap example), but it can be idiotic. As for the victims having no responsibility, I suppose there is no morality involved in democratic choices?

So you think the terrorists only targetted specific voters? That was some special train?

	13-03-2004 07:11									#392
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich So you think the terrorists only targetted specific voters? That was some special train?

No, special bombs.


Like the ones the 'states use which only blow up dictators and terrorists.

	13-03-2004 07:19									#393
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I will wait for the investigation first, not pure speculation on some forum.

While its always good to wait for the "official" word,the international make up and insights of 'Poly makes it a whole lot more than "some forum"

	13-03-2004 08:23									#394
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My belated condolences to all those effected by the attack.
Sincerely Kevin

	13-03-2004 08:26									#395
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO While its always good to wait for the "official" word,the international make up and insights of 'Poly makes it a whole lot more than "some forum"

Whilst that may be true, I want an investigation and as nobody on here is an investigator sifting through the details stuff said here is speculation. This forum is also predominantly leftist.

	13-03-2004 08:34									#396
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Just finished reading the thread. Hmmm I have a friend here who is from Madrid. I haven't spoken to her yet, I think I'll leave it for a few days.

OB is unquestionably right about the moral responsibility thing. It is not a zero sum game. People can bear partial responsibility for bad things others do to them by being negligent or engaging in criminal acts themselves. This takes no blame away from the perpetrator and most often the kind of blame attributed to the victim is a different kind of blame. Go look up the other thread if you disagree. I managed to get Ming and MtG to agree with me, so I must have been especially plausible that day.

Anyway, while that philosophical point is true, it's not clear if it applies in this case.

If it is Al Quaeda (and I can't think of any reason for them to do this - they already got what they wanted out of 911), then I don't see how ordinary Spanish citizens bear any responsibility for this.

The Spanish people made it quite clear, in overwhelming numbers (far more than anyone else), that they were opposed to the war and their elected representatives ignored them. I don't see what other, reasonable action they could have taken. Overthrowing the government would have perhaps been even more problematic and a general strike would have hurt them more than the government (although if that had happened, my admiration for the Spanish people would have gone through the roof).

Why should the average Spaniard be blamed for a bent president who wouldn't do what he was told?

	13-03-2004 08:36									#397
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Considering the current Spanish government has brought a lot of prosperity to Spain, overthrowing would be stupid. The polls also indicate the PP will win the election.

You're a fool, Agathon. Aznar did what was right.

	13-03-2004 08:45									#398
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It looks as if Aznar has brought prosperity and war.

	13-03-2004 11:45									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Anyway, while that philosophical point is true, it's not clear if it applies in this case. If it is Al Quaeda (and I can't think of any reason for them to do this - they already got what they wanted out of 911), then I don't see how ordinary Spanish citizens bear any responsibility for this. The Spanish people made it quite clear, in overwhelming numbers (far more than anyone else), that they were opposed to the war and their elected representatives ignored them. I don't see what other, reasonable action they could have taken. [...] Why should the average Spaniard be blamed for a bent president who wouldn't do what he was told?

My point exactly. The Spanish people is innocent. If someone has to be guilty (if and only if, under so far undetermined conditions), it is Aznar.

	13-03-2004 11:46									#400
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris My point exactly. The Spanish people is innocent. If someone has to be guilty (if and only if, under so far undetermined conditions), it is Aznar.

That's crap in the greatest with regards to Aznar. Very rich indeed.

	13-03-2004 11:50									#401
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BTW, a fact that I believe has been overlooked so far.

There are no more Batasuna deputees not because they didn't go for the election or lost popular support, but because they were forbidden to do so.

Wholly different. I thank the progressist Spaniards, OliverFa and Giancarlo, for pointing this out.

	13-03-2004 11:52									#402
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Look at these fools. The sign n reads 'The bombs dropped in Iraq explode in Madrid'.

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	13-03-2004 11:54									#403
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Look at this DL. Someone ban his ass.

	13-03-2004 11:56									#404
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Ban this DL.

And to the protester who had the guts to do this. I don't necessarily agree, but his courage imposes respect.

	13-03-2004 11:59									#405
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich So you think the terrorists only targetted specific voters? That was some special train?

No, I said that the terrorist's reasoning may have been 'statistically, some victims will be morally desserving of it'. That wouldn't be any different than the American reasoning, which was 'we'll get Osama, even though statistically, innocents will suffer in the process'.

Don't get me wrong, I hate both Bush and Osama.

	13-03-2004 12:16									#406
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There is a difference between calculating with civilian casualties and trying to maximize them. Having as much civilian casualties as possible is effective terror, but not neccessarily effective warfare.

	13-03-2004 12:27									#407
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro There is a difference between calculating with civilian casualties and trying to maximize them. Having as much civilian casualties as possible is effective terror, but not neccessarily effective warfare.

2 AM now, maybe tomorrow.

	13-03-2004 15:40									#408
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	13-03-2004 15:45									#409
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quote: It looks as if Aznar has brought prosperity and war.

He brought war. I don't think he brought prosperity, but Giancarlo can't resist the temptation of making propaganda.

	13-03-2004 15:49									#410
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wait a minute, this makes no sense. If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?

	13-03-2004 17:32									#411
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris There are no more Batasuna deputees not because they didn't go for the election or lost popular support, but because they were forbidden to do so.

Donīt talk about what you donīt know...

The Batasuna deputees did not go for the national elections four years ago. Then, one year ago they have been forbidden, (like the nazi party in Germany) and we are still waiting PNV to remove them from regional parliament.

But if you see those batasuna nazionalists as poor guys banned by "fascist" Aznar thatīs your problem, not mine.

	13-03-2004 17:33									#412
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel wait a minute, this makes no sense. If Osama Bin Laden had nothing to do with Saddam, why do you think that he's mad only at the countries that supported the war on Iraq, and not all the countries that want to destroy him?

	13-03-2004 17:37									#413
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quote: Originally posted by jasev He brought war. I don't think he brought prosperity, but Giancarlo can't resist the temptation of making propaganda.

Sure. War didnīt exist in the world before the attack to Irak...

The best propaganda are the real facts. Simply look at the big increment in people who is working here in Spain. Look at how many new cars are sold. People donīt buy new cars when their economic situation is not good. Look at how many immigrants we have. Would they be coming to Spain if the situation was bad? That doesnīt make much sense...

	13-03-2004 17:40									#414
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I'm afraid I'm very sad about some behaviours in this thread...
do you really think is this the place to speak about politics or flamming or both?

	13-03-2004 17:40									#415
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris My point exactly. The Spanish people is innocent. If someone has to be guilty (if and only if, under so far undetermined conditions), it is Aznar.

So if PP wins again how will you interpret it? Will it mean that Spanish people is guilty?

	13-03-2004 17:51									#416
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking How about the long history of ETA terror attacks in Spain vs ZERO by A-Q? Doesn't that form part of an MO? How about the recently prevented train bombing attempts by ETA? Doesn't that form part of an MO? In fact, the ONLY thing outside of the ETA MO is the size of the attack. Almost EVERYTHING is outside the MO of A-Q.

Very good explanation

But there is one thing else that points to Al-Qaeda. That they are wanting to blame Aznar for it. If it was ETA, Aznar can not be blamed (I am talking in their way of reasoning of course) and some people with no respect for victims can say that "The bombs thrown at Irak detonate at Madrid".

	13-03-2004 17:55									#417
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Not really- the saying would only apply to political freedom. Democracies like America tend to undermine freedom with religion.

Thatīs why you can see temples of all kind of religions in America. Isnīt it?

	13-03-2004 17:57									#418
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Researchers at the norwegian military's research institute have found a document, in arabic, describing how an attack on Spain before the elections could make Spain change their Iraq policy. It says it's smart to attack Spain because it is "the weakest link in the coalition in Iraq ".

The police has found thousands of ETA documents pointing to an attack in Madrid, not to mention the intercepted van with 500 kg of explosives...

	13-03-2004 18:03									#419
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quote: OB is unquestionably right about the moral responsibility thing. It is not a zero sum game. People can bear partial responsibility for bad things others do to them by being negligent or engaging in criminal acts themselves. This takes no blame away from the perpetrator and most often the kind of blame attributed to the victim is a different kind of blame. Go look up the other thread if you disagree. I managed to get Ming and MtG to agree with me, so I must have been especially plausible that day.

It's not BLAME. Blame is moral responsibility. Causal responsibility is pointless - so their actions were part of the causal link to the attack. So what? Why are you saying it?

	13-03-2004 18:03									#420
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I have nothing against safe streets, but the fact that you relate it with democracy shows how far you are to being able of making a coherent point. The streets of Moscow were much safer in the communist era.

Safer does not implies more freedom. Of course, in communist times every aspect of the life was controlled by the soviets (or at least they tried to). In such kind of situation people is safer but their freedom is highly restricted.