13-03-2004 01:42									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Nice quirp, bit invalid. The 'love for wisdom' became a real discipline when it was understood that rational thinking is the closest thing to wisdom we can get.

No. Rational thinking is a good thing, a very good thing, but its NOT the same as wisdom. Wisdom involves an insight into the human heart, the working of the world, that leads to an understanding of the role of analysis in human life, among other things. You can get rational analysis by applying a high IQ mind to texts, and by applying rational techniques of analysis. You get wisdom by living, by suffering, by loving, by interacting with human beings, by gaining insight into others and into yourself.

I too took analytic philosophy course when i was young man (though not enough for a major, Im afraid) Im no smarter now, nor more analytic, but I am most definitely wiser.

	13-03-2004 01:45									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich your "scale" is moronic. You can't compare moral responsibility with some other form of responsibility. The terrorists have COMPLETE moral responsibility and the victims have NONE.

Have you read all my posts? Causal responsibility can indeed stay amoral (read my deathtrap example), but it can be idiotic.

As for the victims having no responsibility, I suppose there is no morality involved in democratic choices?

	13-03-2004 01:47									#363
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark No. Rational thinking is a good thing, a very good thing, but its NOT the same as wisdom. Wisdom involves an insight into the human heart, the working of the world, that leads to an understanding of the role of analysis in human life, among other things. You can get rational analysis by applying a high IQ mind to texts, and by applying rational techniques of analysis. You get wisdom by living, by suffering, by loving, by interacting with human beings, by gaining insight into others and into yourself. I too took analytic philosophy course when i was young man (though not enough for a major, Im afraid) Im no smarter now, nor more analytic, but I am most definitely wiser.

Well, that's the point: wisdom and love of wisdom are different disciplines: sophia and philosophia.

	13-03-2004 01:49									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Whilst I agree that the comment is wrong, and the defence of it lame I would point out that a girl walking in sexy clothing through a dodgy part of town at 1am in the morning is, by her actions, increasing her risk of being raped. That does not translate to blame or responsibilty, but it does at least translate to stupidity or ignorance.

Democracy is about making possible that the girl can walk in sexy clothing at 1 am. Maybe she is dressed in ugly clothes. Maybe she does not have any taste about how to dress properly, but she is not hurting or damaging anyone, so she must be free to do it.

	13-03-2004 01:49									#365
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark No. Rational thinking is a good thing, a very good thing, but its NOT the same as wisdom. Wisdom involves an insight into the human heart, the working of the world, that leads to an understanding of the role of analysis in human life, among other things. You can get rational analysis by applying a high IQ mind to texts, and by applying rational techniques of analysis. You get wisdom by living, by suffering, by loving, by interacting with human beings, by gaining insight into others and into yourself. I too took analytic philosophy course when i was young man (though not enough for a major, Im afraid) Im no smarter now, nor more analytic, but I am most definitely wiser.

rational analysis - they had it coming to them - doesnt equal They deserved it - grammatical analysis provided.

wisdom
1. Most people when they use the words they had it coming, mean moral responsibility, whether thats grammatically justified or not.
2. If i want to discuss the causes of terrorism, apart from the moral meaning, i would be well to avoid a hot button phrase like "they had it coming"
3. Insisting on the phrase despite its tendency to provoke, when perfectly good alternatives exist, is either a sign of A.severe Obssesiveness B. A deliberate attempt to provoke emotional reaction (in internet terms, a troll - singularly inappropriate at this time) C. Lack of wisdom

	13-03-2004 01:54									#366
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Well, you're somewhat right.

Still, wouldn't the wisdom of others who read my post give them the idea of discussing on the basis of good faith, since I did take the time to explain in large what I meant by 'had it coming'?

Besides, sorry, but I tried to think of an efficient alternative, but couldn't find one.

	13-03-2004 01:57									#367
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Democracy is about making possible that the girl can walk in sexy clothing at 1 am. Maybe she is dressed in ugly clothes. Maybe she does not have any taste about how to dress properly, but she is not hurting or damaging anyone, so she must be free to do it.

, sig material.

No one said it wasn't a right or anything, we are talking about individual will here. Your post does not even remotely make a point.

Why wouldn't a dictator allow little girls to dress in sexy clothing anyway?

	13-03-2004 02:00									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well, you're somewhat right. Still, wouldn't the wisdom of others who read my post give them the idea of discussing on the basis of good faith, since I did take the time to explain in large what I meant by 'had it coming'? Besides, sorry, but I tried to think of an efficient alternative, but couldn't find one.

yes, someone who was wise would not explode at you (at least not simply for that turn of phrase) They would rather attempt to look at your posts, see the larger picture of who you are, perhaps by relating it to other people theyve experienced, or even (as I did) to themselves, and see not a terrorist apologist (at least not based on that turn of phrase) but a not atypical immature college philosophy student.

Of course its quite possible that the individual who exploded at you has never been such a phil student himself (BTW i should point out that this applies to a number of analytic disciplines, not just phil by any means) and has limited experience of such. Though i suppose one could say that such inexperience is itself a lack of wisdom.

	13-03-2004 02:01									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well, you're somewhat right. Still, wouldn't the wisdom of others who read my post give them the idea of discussing on the basis of good faith, since I did take the time to explain in large what I meant by 'had it coming'? Besides, sorry, but I tried to think of an efficient alternative, but couldn't find one.

In this case an inefficient alternative would have been preferable to a toxic phrase.

	13-03-2004 02:01									#370
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark it doesnt quite fit either MO and it fits both.

I'm sorry, but for me it is a MUCH smaller leap from a single remotely detonated car TNT-bomb killing 21 to a dozen remotely detonated train TNT-bombs killing 200, than from blowing up a building or a warship in a muslim area, to flying a bunch of commercial aircraft into buildings in the USA. MUCH smaller.

quote: Non-suicidal doesnt prove its not AQ, any more the fact that it was mass attack rather than an assasination proves that it wasnt ETA.

Agreed.

How about the long history of ETA terror attacks in Spain vs ZERO by A-Q?

Doesn't that form part of an MO?

How about the recently prevented train bombing attempts by ETA?

Doesn't that form part of an MO?

In fact, the ONLY thing outside of the ETA MO is the size of the attack.

Almost EVERYTHING is outside the MO of A-Q.

	13-03-2004 02:03									#371
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark yes, someone who was wise would not explode at you (at least not simply for that turn of phrase) They would rather attempt to look at your posts, see the larger picture of who you are, perhaps by relating it to other people theyve experienced, or even (as I did) to themselves, and see not a terrorist apologist (at least not based on that turn of phrase) but a not atypical immature college philosophy student.

I just thought it was a particularly good troll considering his spiel in the moment of silence thread.

	13-03-2004 02:06									#372
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking I'm sorry, but for me it is a MUCH smaller leap from a single remotely detonated car TNT-bomb killing 21 to a dozen remotely detonated train TNT-bombs killing 200, than from blowing up a building or a warship in a muslim area, to flying a bunch of commercial aircraft into buildings in the USA. MUCH smaller.

except they had planned a multiple hijacking earlier, in southeast asia, but the plot was foiled.

and the attacks in the muslim world were largely on US targets (2 embassies and a warship)

and the 1993 attack on the WTC was accomplished by Islamists, with linkages to the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, which subsequently "merged" into AQ.

	13-03-2004 02:07									#373
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I really meant my comment in the silence thread. I say mourning is fine, but the mourning extremists have taken it too far, literally ostracizing anyone who doesn't want to feel bad everytime a newspaper tells you to.

I experienced this on 9/11.

	13-03-2004 02:10									#374
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking I'm sorry, but for me it is a MUCH smaller leap from a single remotely detonated car TNT-bomb killing 21 to a dozen remotely detonated train TNT-bombs killing 200, than from blowing up a building or a warship in a muslim area, to flying a bunch of commercial aircraft into buildings in the USA. MUCH smaller. quote: Non-suicidal doesnt prove its not AQ, any more the fact that it was mass attack rather than an assasination proves that it wasnt ETA. Agreed. How about the long history of ETA terror attacks in Spain vs ZERO by A-Q? Doesn't that form part of an MO? How about the recently prevented train bombing attempts by ETA? Doesn't that form part of an MO? In fact, the ONLY thing outside of the ETA MO is the size of the attack. Almost EVERYTHING is outside the MO of A-Q.

AQ has regulary attacked "new countries" - and it has apparently made attempts in France and in UK - and it has had active cells in Spain - so the attack being in Spain would not be outside its MO. (" Tony killed Mr Jones, he killed Mr Brown but the murder victim this time was Mr Smith - definitely NOT Tonys MO")

	13-03-2004 02:13									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I really meant my comment in the silence thread. I say mourning is fine, but the mourning extremists have taken it too far, literally ostracizing anyone who doesn't want to feel bad everytime a newspaper tells you to. I experienced this on 9/11.

I dont think the newspapers started the moment of silence thread. A poly poster did. If you didnt feel bad, you were free to ignore the thread. I frequently ignore threads where my response could only serve to provoke
(except when it comes to teasing Paiktis about some aspect of Greek politics or history - but I know he wont get bent out of shape over it)

	13-03-2004 02:19									#376
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Democracy is about making possible that the girl can walk in sexy clothing at 1 am. Maybe she is dressed in ugly clothes. Maybe she does not have any taste about how to dress properly, but she is not hurting or damaging anyone, so she must be free to do it.

Just ask yourself if you would act like that. Woud you dare to go through an extremely dangerous quarter. It probably won't help that you insist on your rights then. You can see it coming, that's it. Did you do anything wrong? No, but you knew of the risk. All the guilt is upon the offender of course, but if you'd do it, I'd accuse you of being stupid and careles or at least stubborn until self-destruction for insisting on rights you ought to have.

	13-03-2004 02:21									#377
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Let me just say, as far as the thread is concerned, I disagree with Oncle Boris.

	13-03-2004 02:25									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Just ask yourself if you would act like that. Woud you dare to go through an extremely dangerous quarter. It probably won't help that you insist on your rights then. You can see it coming, that's it. Did you do anything wrong? No, but you knew of the risk. All the guilt is upon the offender of course, but if you'd do it, I'd accuse you of being stupid and careles or at least stubborn until self-destruction for insisting on rights you ought to have.

"However we dress, whereever we go, yes means yes and no means no"

waxing nostalgic for the good old days of feminism.

	13-03-2004 02:26									#379
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thats actually a good slogan

	13-03-2004 02:31									#380
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In a democracy, people get the government they deserve. People are repsonsible for the actions of their government either directly, but voting it in, or indirectly, allowing it to do bad things.

I agree with this. At least in the major sense.

quote: If the Spanish peoples really opposed the war, they should have had a general strike to bring down the government.

But I disagree with this. If Spanish people really disagreed with the government they should have retired their support from in the local elections of past year. But they (we) didnīt. Which shows that all those demonstrations were manipulated by someone who wanted to achieve in the streets what they could not do in elections. Like they are trying to manipulate it and blame the government for the 200 dead people. The only responsibles were the ones who put the bombs, the ones who ordered them to do that, the ones who planned the attacks and the ones who support them. To say that Aznar is guilty because he has acted against terrorism trying to prevent something like this is disguising the truth.

	13-03-2004 02:33									#381
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Let me just say, as far as the thread is concerned, I disagree with Oncle Boris.

Why do you feel the urge to 'disagree'? It's quite unusual for you not to join an argument.

	13-03-2004 02:50									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris , sig material.

The fact that you consider it sig material (I suppose that in an attempt to ashame me) and that Iīm proud that you do it shows how far our views are

quote: No one said it wasn't a right or anything, we are talking about individual will here. Your post does not even remotely make a point.

Of course you are not understanding what I say or you pretend not to understand. It is not about saying if the girl acts properly or not because she risks herself in a daring street. Itīs about making all the streets safe.

It is not about saying "those Spanish risked themselves by helping USA and upseting Al-Qaeda". Itīs about Spanish trying to help USA getting rid of Al-Qaeda.

The ostrich can hide its head under the ground and pretend that the danger is not there. But that wonīt change the truth. We can be egoistic and let the USA fight alone against Al-Qaeda while we look from the "safety". If the USA win, we will allow ourselves the luxury of giving them moral lessons. If USA lose, then it will be too late when Al-Qaeda turns to us.

So, if it was Al-Qaeda, which I highly doubt, nothing would change. I would still support the government in what they did.

quote: Why wouldn't a dictator allow little girls to dress in sexy clothing anyway?

Because dictatoriships are afraid of any kind of freedom.

	13-03-2004 03:00									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Just ask yourself if you would act like that. Woud you dare to go through an extremely dangerous quarter. It probably won't help that you insist on your rights then. You can see it coming, that's it. Did you do anything wrong? No, but you knew of the risk. All the guilt is upon the offender of course, but if you'd do it, I'd accuse you of being stupid and careles or at least stubborn until self-destruction for insisting on rights you ought to have.

Please, read what I said (if you donīt fnd the post just look at someones signature )

I said that democracy is about making posible that she can walk safely. You are telling me that she is careless because she goes inside the unsafe street. They are two different things.But letīs call things by its name.

Democracy itīs not about avoiding confrontations with terrorisms just because they blackmail us. People who break the law must be purchased and detained. Al-Qaeda wonīt dissapear because we access to their petitions (and by the way, what are they asking for?). It will only dissapear if we make them dissapear, if we make the streets safe again.

	13-03-2004 03:01									#384
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA The fact that you consider it sig material (I suppose that in an attempt to ashame me) and that Iīm proud that you do it shows how far our views are

I have nothing against safe streets, but the fact that you relate it with democracy shows how far you are to being able of making a coherent point. The streets of Moscow were much safer in the communist era.

quote: Of course you are not understanding what I say or you pretend not to understand. It is not about saying if the girl acts properly or not because she risks herself in a daring street. Itīs about making all the streets safe. It is not about saying "those Spanish risked themselves by helping USA and upseting Al-Qaeda". Itīs about Spanish trying to help USA getting rid of Al-Qaeda. Because dictatoriships are afraid of any kind of freedom.

I would like you to define what is this 'it' which is not about causality, and the possibility that this causality can become a moral choice, depending on the conditions.

quote: The ostrich can hide its head under the ground and pretend that the danger is not there. But that wonīt change the truth. We can be egoistic and let the USA fight alone against Al-Qaeda while we look from the "safety". If the USA win, we will allow ourselves the luxury of giving them moral lessons. If USA lose, then it will be too late when Al-Qaeda turns to us.

America has been nurturing terror from the beginning of its existence. Your statement shows how grossly incompetent you are in evaluating a situation and its concomitants.

quote: Because dictatoriships are afraid of any kind of freedom.

Not really- the saying would only apply to political freedom. Democracies like America tend to undermine freedom with religion.

I don't see how shaking your 11-years old ass would terrorize any dictator (at least, those who don't use religion as a basis for order).

	13-03-2004 03:02									#385
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I was wondering, which party is Spain's Interior Minister part of?

	13-03-2004 04:00									#386
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Democracy is about making possible that the girl can walk in sexy clothing at 1 am. Maybe she is dressed in ugly clothes. Maybe she does not have any taste about how to dress properly, but she is not hurting or damaging anyone, so she must be free to do it.

I agree that a democracy, or any rights respecting government, should endeavour to make it safe for a girl to dress how she likes and when she likes provided she is not hurting or damaging anyone.

The reality of the situation is different to the ideal. You are being careless or ignorant or somesuch if you assume that your effective rights are as extensive as your legal rights. You have got to be prepared for the real situation, not the ideal situation.

quote: It will only dissapear if we make them dissapear, if we make the streets safe again.

I agree with that. I would add the caveat that until the democracy has made the streets safe, girls do not go around those dodgy streets in the middle of the night wearing provocative clothing. Its common sense to avoid risk until it can be eliminated.

	13-03-2004 05:10									#387
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quote: "However we dress, whereever we go, yes means yes and no means no" waxing nostalgic for the good old days of feminism.

And in how far does that relate to my post? Did I anywhere say I'd blame that fictional girl for anything else than deliberately taking a risk? The feminist saying applies to judges or policemen who would give the offender a low penalty or cease investigations "because she could see it coming". The problem is the first part of the argument, not the second one.

quote: I said that democracy is about making posible that she can walk safely. You are telling me that she is careless because she goes inside the unsafe street. They are two different things.But letīs call things by its name.

This actually has nothing to do with democracy. Actually many dictatorships are far more inclined to enforce "security" than democracies. Why? Because security oftenmeans restrictions of freedom which ought to be a core value in democracy. And this, in contrast, means giving that fictional girl the right to go anywhere, at any time etc.
To give absolute security is an utopia and there'll always be special risks in a society.

quote: Democracy itīs not about avoiding confrontations with terrorisms just because they blackmail us. People who break the law must be purchased and detained. Al-Qaeda wonīt dissapear because we access to their petitions (and by the way, what are they asking for?). It will only dissapear if we make them dissapear, if we make the streets safe again.

I agree with that. But that still means that we can see it coming that more terrorist attacks will come because of that. I don't argue for complete avoidance.

	13-03-2004 06:52									#388
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Another thing that points towards Al Qaida/islamists:

Researchers at the norwegian military's research institute have found a document, in arabic, describing how an attack on Spain before the elections could make Spain change their Iraq policy. It says it's smart to attack Spain because it is "the weakest link in the coalition in Iraq ".

	13-03-2004 07:00									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia I was wondering, which party is Spain's Interior Minister part of?

What? It is a bureaucratic organization.

	13-03-2004 07:02									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Another thing that points towards Al Qaida/islamists: Researchers at the norwegian military's research institute have found a document, in arabic, describing how an attack on Spain before the elections could make Spain change their Iraq policy. It says it's smart to attack Spain because it is "the weakest link in the coalition in Iraq ".

But then again it could be ETA terrorists trying to change the outcome of the election so the PSOE wins (which is highly unlikely even now). The Partido Popular (PP) has been noted for taken incredibly hard line approaches to terrorism.

I will wait for the investigation first, not pure speculation on some forum.