11-03-2004 20:24									#61
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It is probably ETA and Al Queda. Al Queda probably supplied the know-how and the logistics, ETA already had the people on the ground.

	11-03-2004 20:24									#62
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My condolences to the families and to the people of Spain.

Does it strike anyone else that this happened exactly 2½ years after 9/11? Almost to the minute, if you account for the 5 hour time zone difference.

	11-03-2004 20:27									#63
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It is ETA. The explosive used was Tytadine, the same stolen from a french arsenal last year and the same captured on previous failed acts





four trains, nine holes like these

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	11-03-2004 20:28									#64
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In the 1980s, there was an attack like this carried out in the Bologna railway station. Eighty-five died, don't know how many wounded. Right before the elections, caused a landslie victory for the right.

In the 1990s it was uncovered that the bombing was carried out by an extreme right-wing group that was connected to the Italian military for the purpose of derailing the exected leftist victory in the polls.

Operation Gladio has it's fingers in all Western European countries.

	11-03-2004 20:30									#66
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	11-03-2004 20:38									#67
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat It is probably ETA and Al Queda. Al Queda probably supplied the know-how and the logistics, ETA already had the people on the ground.

ETA has his own know-how and logistic for years and much better than Al Queda in Spain.

	11-03-2004 21:05									#68
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Ouch. This is the first I've heard of this.

My condolences to all effected by it, of course.

Like GePap, I too have often wondered why trains aren't hit by terrorists more often. I hope they haven't figured it out and now are starting a new trend in terror attacks.

One thing I urge the Spanish to learn from we Americans: don't assume you know who did it until there is pretty good proof. Look at Oklahoma City. Everybody thought it was Arab terrorists and it was an angry white American.

-Arrian

	11-03-2004 21:15									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the 1980s, there was an attack like this carried out in the Bologna railway station. Eighty-five died, don't know how many wounded. Right before the elections, caused a landslie victory for the right. In the 1990s it was uncovered that the bombing was carried out by an extreme right-wing group that was connected to the Italian military for the purpose of derailing the exected leftist victory in the polls. Operation Gladio has it's fingers in all Western European countries.

Che, I'm not aware of the the Bologna bombing, but this was in all likelyhood done by the ETA for the purposes of electing the PP.

The ETA has been on the defesnsive right now, and at least according to discussions with some of the PoliSci profs here and my own understanding, ETA needs a foil/opponent to try to re-energize the group and to allow it to further point to the government in Madrid as the oppressors. There's a hardcore 15-% of Pais Vasco that supports the aims of ETA. There's a reason why the whole territory is exposed to a greater degree of Low Intensity Violence than any other part of Spain, because of the degree of the population's support.

The problem with Basque terrorism is that the ETA specifically and some nationalists conceive of the Basque state not as a cultural one but an ethnic one. Some ETA literature is scary in the resemblence to radical rightist racial/ethnic literature. The terror problem will be pretty intractable for some time to come because it's not just a political problem that can be completely solved with amending the Autonomic Statutes.

To tie this back to the first paragraph, the ETA fears that if the PSOE or a left coalition gets into power, that they would be willing to negotiate with the PNV and delegate more powers to the Basque Country, co-opting some of the ETA's support and lessing the drive for outright independce, softening the hard core of supporters that believe in Basque independence.

I'd hate to say it, but sending the Spanish army into Pais Vasco/Navarre would be counterproductive. The worst thing that could happen would be to elect the PSOE.

Also, it's silly to think that the ETA couldn't coordinate this when they've been bombing targets and shooting politicos since 1969. Yes, it's outside their normal operating pattern, but September 11th was outside Al-Quaeda's normal pattern too. Considering the timing, it's highly likely that the ETA is trying to tip the vote towards the PP.

	11-03-2004 21:18									#70
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quote: Originally posted by GePap --- Personally, it is surprising to me why trains are not more common targest-they are sitting ducks, they are not given anywhere near the same protection as planes, and attacks on commuters are likely to be a. very bloody and b.get lots of press.

Ten years ago, there was a bomb on a Paris Metro train. I was one week, on the minute, from being a passanger on that train. I don't think the bomb was so big, but there were policemen all over town when I passed through again a few days later.

	11-03-2004 21:28									#71
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the 1980s, there was an attack like this carried out in the Bologna railway station. Eighty-five died, don't know how many wounded. Right before the elections, caused a landslie victory for the right. In the 1990s it was uncovered that the bombing was carried out by an extreme right-wing group that was connected to the Italian military for the purpose of derailing the exected leftist victory in the polls. Operation Gladio has it's fingers in all Western European countries.

The bombing was established as the work of a fascist group. The only statements that it was the work of the Italian military were on the usual lefty websites

But lets parse gueveras statement - it was the work of rightwingers - correct. The rightwingers were "connected" to the Italian military - well given the ambiguity of "connected" that could well be true, without meaning very much (of course you could say that Saddam was 'connected" to al qaeeda - hey, wait its no coincidence some neocons were ex-
Trotskyites, :rolleyes "for the purpose" does this refer to 'the bombings were carried out by the fascists" for this purpose, or the Italian military had this purpose?? Very different, to me at least.

	11-03-2004 21:32									#72
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A true tragedy.

Once again, it can be seen on tv and online that many Basques are condemning such an act. Evidently, it is not very representative of "freedom fighting", for anyone involved....for example:

quote: The president or lehendakari of the Basque Country, Juan José Ibarretxe, condemned the attacks, saying that "when ETA attacks, the Basque heart breaks into a thousand pieces." He invited the Basque population to silent demonstrations in front of Basque city and town halls.

Still, it's too early to assign definite blame, though the signs and circumstances do point to ETA, as has been posted before.

However....

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the 1990s it was uncovered that the bombing was carried out by an extreme right-wing group that was connected to the Italian military for the purpose of derailing the exected leftist victory in the polls. Operation Gladio has it's fingers in all Western European countries.

The least that I can say is that such a theory is extremely unlikely (for those of us who aren't fans of one-sided conspiracy theories), but sadly not impossible.

Let's wait and see if such a theory is eventually corroborated by the evidence then...or if the opposite will happen and ETA's blame is confirmed.

However, believing anything more than that is just mere speculation at this point.

	11-03-2004 21:36									#73
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This is a terrible and horrible human tragedy, the worst terror attack since 9/11. Lets hope whoever did this is swiftly brought to justice, and that the actions of a few extremists will not interfere with reconiciliation between the Basques and the rest of the Spanish.

	11-03-2004 21:43									#74
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The bombing was established as the work of a fascist group. The only statements that it was the work of the Italian military were on the usual lefty websites But lets parse gueveras statement - it was the work of rightwingers - correct. The rightwingers were "connected" to the Italian military -

It was a major Italian scandal. It wasn't merely "lefty" websites but the Italian media and judiciary that were involved in uncovering this.

	11-03-2004 22:24									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It was a major Italian scandal. It wasn't merely "lefty" websites but the Italian media and judiciary that were involved in uncovering this.

Stop trying to politicize this. The PSOE is not going to win the election.

This was a terrorist attack by ETA, of abhorrent proportions. 187 dead. If anything the PP is going to win in the polls.

I think if we find who did this, we must reconsider bringing back the death penalty.

	11-03-2004 22:27									#76
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quote: Originally posted by jasev Giancarlo, please stop your PP propaganda. People are dying right now, so please leave politics at a side by the moment.

You don't think I am not mourning? I been on the phone for quite a bit to find and hope not any of my relatives were on that train.

	11-03-2004 22:46									#77
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185 dead, over 1000 wounded latest count.

The US and certain other governments are hesitating from saying this is absolutely ETA.

Reasons:

1.) With the exception of the supermarket bombing (which ETA called a "mistake"), all attacks have been on judges, police, and other governmental authorities

2.) ETA historically gives warning. With this attack, there was no warning

3.) ETA also historically claims responsibility. There is yet to be any claim

4.) Simultaneous attacks against civilians are a hallmark of Al-Queda

5.) Spain had believe it had ETA on the run, meaning that ETA might not have had the ability for an attack on this scale

6.) Al-Queda has included Spain among its threats due to its close alliance with the United States in the war on terror

I'm not saying for sure, but this looks from the information here that ETA, if responsible, might have at least had help from a fundamentalist organization

	11-03-2004 22:51									#78
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Condolences to Spain, this is quite terrible.

I'm amazed at the coordination - 10 bombs went off, and another three were found and exploded by police. If it was ETA (which seems most likely), their level of sophistication seems to have markedly increased since their last attacks.

However, threatening the autonomy of the Basque region is ludicrous. ETA does not represent mainstream Basques, who are as horrified as any by this attack. Any "martial law" in Basque territory will simply make these bombings a success, as that is the precise aim of the ETA. They want such measures from Madrid to turn moderate Basques against the government and drive them into ETA arms.

Madrid needs to orchestrate a campaign with the Basque leadership against ETA, not take heavy-handed measures that will destroy the Basques' current reconciliation attempts.

	11-03-2004 23:01									#79
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the train in spain blows up on the plain

3/11 never forget

In all seriousness, though, this is terrible.

	11-03-2004 23:01									#80
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I said that when I was pretty angry. I still support their autonomy and further reconciliation.

quote: 2.) ETA historically gives warning. With this attack, there was no warning 3.) ETA also historically claims responsibility. There is yet to be any claim 4.) Simultaneous attacks against civilians are a hallmark of Al-Queda 5.) Spain had believe it had ETA on the run, meaning that ETA might not have had the ability for an attack on this scale

No I don't see how it could of been AL Qaeda. First off they found explosives that ETA stole. This was ETA. But it wouldn't surprise if me if Al Qaeda was in fact involved too.

I don't know what the reaction of Aznar will be.. I don't he will turn against the moderate Basques as that wouldn't be wise, but I think he will have the Civil Guard and Police look for who did this.

	11-03-2004 23:21									#81
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Terrible.

I've a few friends on ERASMUS in Madrid, no way to get in contact with them unfortunately. I hope they're OK. I hope anyone here who has family or friends in Madrid has heard from them and that they're well. This is a sickening act.

So ETA are denying responsibility. Interesting. My money's on them regardless. Is there any chance however a splinter group of ETA could have performed this, operating outside the main organization, similar to the RIRA in Ireland that was behind the Omagh bombing? Or is ETA more unified in purpose than the IRA? This might explain why ETA itself is denying knowledge.

Of course, the more likely possibility is that, well oops, they got a bit too carried away this time. They've got their cake but they've just discovered they don't like the way it tastes anymore. Either way, these guys are going the way the RIRA went after Omagh and Osama and his Allah queerboys after 9/11. They're history.

	11-03-2004 23:26									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Stop trying to politicize this. The PSOE is not going to win the election. This was a terrorist attack by ETA, of abhorrent proportions. 187 dead. If anything the PP is going to win in the polls. I think if we find who did this, we must reconsider bringing back the death penalty.

You could leave the policy for another day.

If we accepted the capital punishment we will be more terrorist than they.

	11-03-2004 23:27									#83
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edit: reply to our_man post:
This is certain, if it was them. They've traumatized an entire country. However I still retain some minor doubts for the moment if it was them indeed.

	12-03-2004 00:09									#84
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The death toll's up to 190 now, over a thousand wounded.

I don't know what else to say, other than to offer my general condolences to the Spanish people, and to hope that the perpetrators and their supporters — where ever they may be — are brought to justice, either in a court of law or at the business end of a weapon. Their choice, really.

On a related note, I wonder if this has any link to that French group which placed bombs on railways there, then blackmailed the government to paying them off?

Gatekeeper

	12-03-2004 00:39									#85
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In the old days, terrorists would take responsibility for their crimes. Now, the ****ing chickenshits just melt away into the scenery.

	12-03-2004 00:43									#86
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Just watching the TV, I think they may have found some Arbaic language Koranic Verse tapes with the attackers...

	12-03-2004 00:50									#87
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Shi, have they arrested any of the attackers?

	12-03-2004 00:51									#88
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I haven't found or heard any information of whether or not this was a suicide attack. From what I can tell from the end results it seems as though the explosives went off above floor level of the train, which suggests a suicide attack (compare it to the bus bombings in Israel), as it'd be fairly hard to place explosives at that level without anyone having noticed anything. A placed bomb would more likely have been placed underneath the floor of the train, but the base does not seem damaged a lot on most of the pictures I have seen.

Suicide bombers would suggest Islamic extremists...

	12-03-2004 01:01									#89
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quote: A TAPE with Koranic verses in Arabic and seven detonators were found in a van suspected of being linked to the deadly bomb attacks in Madrid today, Interior Minister Angel Acebes said. The van, which had been reported stolen, was discovered in the east of the capital, Acebes told a media conference.

http://news.com.au/common/story_pag...55E1702,00.html

	12-03-2004 01:02									#90
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It's on CNN as breaking news now too.