12-03-2004 02:26									#121
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Oliver,

Acebes, the Secretary of Internal Affairs said this morning that it was ETA and now he is saying that Al-Quaeda is a high possibility.

Stations are speaking about a suicide terrorist in the train.

And this is not the first time the extreme islamist attacks Spain... do you remember attack in Mororoco against Spanish interest?

	12-03-2004 02:32									#122
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Extract of Al-Quaeda's letter:

quote: "We've been able to infiltrate in the heart of Europe and destroy one of the most important support of the crusader's alliance: Spain". "Aznar: Where's America now? Who's going to protect UK, Italy or Japan?" "This is a way to put thing in balance with Spain, crusader and America's ally in her war against Islam".

	12-03-2004 02:35									#123
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Spain is an historic enemy of the Muslims. It would not be an unreasonable assumption that this was AQ.

	12-03-2004 02:36									#124
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"I'd have to wonder if ETA made the attack and is trying to pawn off responsibility on Al Queda to deflect blame and raise greater fears. "

I doubt it. If ETA were to do this attack, I don't see why they wouldn't claim responsibility like they have in the past. Pawning off the responsibility would negate any political gain they may see themselves as getting fromt his attack.

	12-03-2004 02:37									#125
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Oliver, Acebes, the Secretary of Internal Affairs said this morning that it was ETA and now he is saying that Al-Quaeda is a high possibility. Stations are speaking about a suicide terrorist in the train. And this is not the first time the extreme islamist attacks Spain... do you remember attack in Mororoco against Spanish interest?

For me they are death people. No matter if its AlQaeda or ETA. There is very few difference. I don´t discard it has been AlQaeda, but it´s terribly hard to believe that ETA hasn´t helped them knowing how much they like each other.

	12-03-2004 02:38									#126
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On the other hand. Although Spain has fought muslim, that is becuase we're neighbours. Spain has been though to be arabs' friend (remember there was no Spanish embassy in Israel until 1982, and only because EU ask for it)...

	12-03-2004 02:39									#127
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Oliver, I agree with Shi Huangdi... why would you make a terrorist attack and then denying it?

	12-03-2004 02:44									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I doubt it. If ETA were to do this attack, I don't see why they wouldn't claim responsibility like they have in the past. Pawning off the responsibility would negate any political gain they may see themselves as getting fromt his attack.

I will tell you why. Is it´s AlQaeda people will blame the government for the deaths. They will say (wrong opinion, but they will say it) that AlQaeda has attacked just because Aznar helped Bush.

And remember. The elections are on Sunday. The ones who did it had this in mind for sure.

	12-03-2004 02:48									#129
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If it was Al Qeada, it would most likely have to do with the strong Spanish support for the Iraq operation (as the letter insinuates), not about Grenada 500 years ago or Lepanto.

I guess my queston is, if it turns out to be AQ, how will this affect Spanish public opinion about Spains position in Iraq and its support of the US?

My guess, it will increase backing of the government and more support for it's Iraq position, since people like to be contrarians when it comes to terrorists.

	12-03-2004 02:50									#130
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It is a very strange situation. If ETA has not been, they have copied its way to act. What is clear is that ETA and Al-Qaeda are worlds apart.
We follow the word of our government. If now they repent from what they said then an horrible mistake has been made

	12-03-2004 02:51									#131
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Although I've hear this theory, I don't agree OlvierFA. Nobody I know is going to change his vote for this. Plus, ETA people hates more PP than PSOE, and for ETA to have their people mobilized it's probably better a PP goverment.

PP and PSOE could be very different, but both has a strong record of police's efficiency against ETA (since 1986 or so... before PSOE's record is no so good)....

But let me say one thing. This is not time for politics. It's time for solidarity

Thanks you all in this thread for your solidarity.

Nice avatar, Oliver.

	12-03-2004 03:09									#132
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I guess my queston is, if it turns out to be AQ, how will this affect Spanish public opinion about Spains position in Iraq and its support of the US? My guess, it will increase backing of the government and more support for it's Iraq position, since people like to be contrarians when it comes to terrorists.

Or they can blame the government for it and believe that if Spain hadn´t backed US we would be "safe". Of course, no one is safe with terrorists and the only way to deal with them is strength.

	12-03-2004 03:14									#133
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Or they can blame the government for it and believe that if Spain hadn´t backed US we would be "safe". Of course, no one is safe with terrorists and the only way to deal with them is strength.

If that were true, there would be no terrorism as is-or at least, not against India and Israel....

	12-03-2004 03:19									#134
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If that were true, there would be no terrorism as is-or at least, not against India and Israel....

He said the only way to deal with them - he did not say it was a 100% effective way. Note that terrorism against Israel went down after Israel took aggressive action in spring 2002.

Do you really think if Spain were to withdraw from Iraq AQ would leave them alone??? note that AQ targeted Istanbul and Jakarta, despite opposition to the Iraq war from both Turkey and Indonesia. AQ is playing its own games.

	12-03-2004 03:22									#135
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Do you really think if Spain were to withdraw from Iraq AQ would leave them alone??? note that AQ targeted Istanbul and Jakarta, despite opposition to the Iraq war from both Turkey and Indonesia. AQ is playing its own games.

Did I say anytime this might be the case?

Though of course, both Turkey and indonesia are moderate Muslim states, so bringing them down in in AQ's interest regardless of their iraq position.

And yes, Israel's actions cut down attacks-but they did not end them.

	12-03-2004 03:24									#136
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Did I say anytime this might be the case?

No you did not. Pardon if i read more into your comments than you intended.

	12-03-2004 03:32									#137
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Do you really think if Spain were to withdraw from Iraq AQ would leave them alone??? note that AQ targeted Istanbul and Jakarta, despite opposition to the Iraq war from both Turkey and Indonesia. AQ is playing its own games.

Wise words Sadly, not everyone sees that. Is like believing that if someone is going to attack you he won´t do because you refuse to fight.

Remember that in WW2 nazis took many countries that were neutral. And they were planning to conquer the left ones after the allies were defeated. This position is more an egoist one. Hoping that someone else (USA) will solve the problem while Europe allows itself the luxury of staying at second place.

And about this ETA/AQ thing: Remember that ETA tried to do something similar to what has been done this day three times before.

	12-03-2004 04:04									#138
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It was TOO LARGE an attack for ETA to have ever managed to pull off on its own.

	12-03-2004 04:16									#139
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence It was TOO LARGE an attack for ETA to have ever managed to pull off on its own.

Kill is easy. Mounting a crowded train, left some small packet in a bin and get out the train at the next station has no difficulty, if you know how to set an alarm clock.

	12-03-2004 04:19									#140
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence It was TOO LARGE an attack for ETA to have ever managed to pull off on its own.

They almost managed to do it three times, but police prevented it. We shouldn´t dicard colaboration.

	12-03-2004 04:21									#141
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One fact for reflection: AlQaeda has always used kamikaze people, not bombs inside bags.

	12-03-2004 04:26									#142
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA One fact for reflection: AlQaeda has always used kamikaze people, not bombs inside bags.

Maybe one or more al Qaeda people were on the trains, or alternatively maybe they're running out of trained operatives and need to conserve them.

	12-03-2004 04:27									#143
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This is a tragic day for Spain and for the whole of the European Union and the world. There is no doubt that all of the EU will stand by Spain and provide any help there is, as all of the other 14 leaders of the EU have already said. I'm sure all of us felt that this could have easily have been our city.

	12-03-2004 04:29									#144
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3/11, 9/11?

If it's Al Qaeda, I wonder if there is some kind of significance... Qur'an passages? I know didleyshit about the Qur'an.

What day was the Bali bombing on? That was a bad one too.

	12-03-2004 04:29									#145
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The SER Radio from Spain is talking about a kamikaze (suiced bombers). I think Al Qaeda is the responsible for this attack... but perhaps they did it with the help of ETA.

	12-03-2004 04:33									#146
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I don't think al Qaeda has always used suicide bombers. That just was just a byproduct of using airplanes as weapons. The WTC bombing in '93 was not a suicide bombing. Ditto the embassy bombings in '98.

All this shows is that American security seems to have diverted new attacks to Europe.

	12-03-2004 04:34									#147
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I had written a reply to Winston here, but I deleted it again because it's a touchy issue and I don't want to upset anybody.

Last edited by Monk on 12-03-2004 at 04:48

	12-03-2004 05:02									#149
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I´m not surprised that the SER supports the kamikaze theory...

	12-03-2004 05:06									#150
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA I´m not surprised that the SER supports the kamikaze theory...

Why?