26-03-2004 04:53									#1
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Blair hails new Libyan relations

I don't know what to make of this.

Libya's people will benefit from an ending of sanctions and opening up the economy, and the West will get lots of solid intelligence to help fight Al-qaeda. And lots of contracts for big companies.

But, Gadaffi, whilst not being a butcher like Saddam, was behind a lot of terrorism himself, and he's notoriously unpredictable. And we're selling weapons to him? It could backfire spectacularly, like Al-qaeda did.

Libya's got lots of natural resources and it's in a good position, so the country could do well if Gadaffi can tone down his 'eccentricity'. Although I think that some of his big projects sound distinctly dodgy.

I'd be interested to know how this is being reported in America.

	26-03-2004 05:09									#2
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You know, I just don't think we should trust him...

...trust Blair that is

	26-03-2004 05:24									#3
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He's already been shocked and awed.
Word is he sent smoke signals to Hussein, trying to warn him not to do stupid things.

	26-03-2004 05:43									#4
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I'll begin to worry if western leaders start to wear such funny clothes like Gaddafi

	26-03-2004 05:45									#5
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Remember, being a blood-thirsty, oppressive dictator is okay so long as you are one of OUR blood-thirsty, oppressive dictators.

	26-03-2004 05:45									#6
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He's getting old too. He may be trying to bring Libya back into world politics and trade before he passes on.

	26-03-2004 08:42									#7
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he is one of our glorious allies... just like Saudi Arabia.

	26-03-2004 08:50									#8
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Libya pretty much came clean. Gadafi is also getting older and wiser. He was very stupid when he was young and his family got killed with his imaginary territory lines in the ocean. He has been very quiet in recent years. He wants to leave at least a survivable legacy for his son I think it is who wants to succeed him.

	26-03-2004 09:12									#9
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I can't believe what I hear. Gaddafi has played his card decades back. Trust him now, regret it later. His true colours are shown and he should not be considered as an allie. If anything, then most an enemy who is inable to act against you anymore and has buried his hatchet, and that's at the very most. NEVER!

	26-03-2004 09:15									#10
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But Pekka, he's a glorious US ally! I mean, he's cooperating.
Clearly he'll always be a US ally.

	26-03-2004 09:30									#11
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Is it just me, or Gadaffi becoming more and more like David Hasselhoff every day?

http://www.wipl.org/newsj.htm

quote: BROTHER LEADER MUAMMAR GADDAFI, OF THE WORLD ISALMIC PEOPLE’S LEADERSHIP DESIGNS A REVOLUTIONARY, SAFE CAR FOR THE BENEFIT OF MANKIND.

	26-03-2004 09:31									#12
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That explains my distrust of Agathon.



ACK!

	26-03-2004 09:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I can't believe what I hear. Gaddafi has played his card decades back. Trust him now, regret it later. His true colours are shown and he should not be considered as an allie. If anything, then most an enemy who is inable to act against you anymore and has buried his hatchet, and that's at the very most. NEVER!

The US could take him out in two weeks, so I don't think he wants to do anything stupid. He's a survivalist, not an idiot.

	26-03-2004 09:33									#14
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"I'm sorry Muammar, but that ravine is just too wide for me to jump."

"C'mon KITT! We'll clear it no problem with Allah's mighty turbo-boost!"

Attachment: car.gif
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	26-03-2004 09:56									#15
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I think it may be more about Libya after MG.

There is a middle class there. It is a farily well developed country with intact infrastructure. They are very European, compared to some other places.

I think Libya would be ideal for reintroducing democracy to a Muslim state, without a lot of bloodshed.

	26-03-2004 09:59									#16
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither They are very European, compared to some other places.

No, no, no, no. Most of the wealth is with Gadafi's family. Though there is infrastructure, the wealth is almost completely centered on Gadafi.

If you want a European Muslim country, take a look at Libya's neighbor... Tunisia. It isn't very democratic (as far as muslim fundamentalists go), but they have unprecendented rights for women and an unparallaled standard of living when compared to other middle eastern countries.

	26-03-2004 10:00									#17
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Would you rather the sanctions stay in place?

	26-03-2004 10:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No, no, no, no. Most of the wealth is with Gadafi's family. Though there is infrastructure, the wealth is almost completely centered on Gadafi. If you want a European Muslim country, take a look at Libya's neighbor... Tunisia. It isn't very democratic (as far as muslim fundamentalists go), but they have unprecendented rights for women and an unparallaled standard of living when compared to other middle eastern countries.

Libya ain't that bad either. They had a lot of emerging capitalists prior to the 'revolution', and they have a lot of Western educated people whose education was financed by the state.

All of North Africa qualifies as places the West should pay more attention to, but Libya more than others as they emerge from a dictatorship. It's a chance to help things along, peacefully. No guarantees, but nothing gained if nothing is ventured.

	26-03-2004 10:23									#19
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Libya ain't that bad either. They had a lot of emerging capitalists prior to the 'revolution', and they have a lot of Western educated people whose education was financed by the state.

The revolution was in 1969, I think. That was thirty five years ago. A lot of these educated people were driven out of the country on the eve of the 1969 takeover by Gadafi, where King Idiris was overthrown.

quote: All of North Africa qualifies as places the West should pay more attention to, but Libya more than others as they emerge from a dictatorship. It's a chance to help things along, peacefully. No guarantees, but nothing gained if nothing is ventured.

I think right now most emphasis should be placed on Tunisia.

	26-03-2004 10:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The revolution was in 1969, I think. That was thirty five years ago. A lot of these educated people were driven out of the country on the eve of the 1969 takeover by Gadafi, where King Idiris was overthrown. I think right now most emphasis should be placed on Tunisia.

Do we have to pick one?

And I am speaking of people sent to be educated in the West since the revolution.

	26-03-2004 10:26									#21
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Do we have to pick one? And I am speaking of people sent to be educated in the West since the revolution.

If Gadafi opens his country up that is fine. You have to keep in mind from the time he took over up until recently his country was pretty isolated.

Most of the educated people fled Libya decades ago.

	26-03-2004 10:26									#22
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I just don't like these games where you even consider someone as allie for a day until he's not useful, if the allie we're talking about is this. Just because he's on his knees and wanting to cooperate doesn't mean we should consider him an allie. If he knows something, he must come 100% open to us, or forever silence. Either way he's still the enemy. The only difference is if it's an enemy that gives us information without forcing, or an enemy that must be forced, but enemy no less.

	26-03-2004 10:28									#23
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Pekka: He has wisened up. So say if there is a bully, and he comes to apologize to you for all what he has done and stops bullying you, he still should be considered your enemy? That's pretty circular.

	26-03-2004 10:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo If Gadafi opens his country up that is fine. You have to keep in mind from the time he took over up until recently his country was pretty isolated. Most of the educated people fled Libya decades ago.

I'm talking about warming up to Libya for after Gadaffi is gone. Wouldn't it be good to be able to influence them away from the likes of the Wahabbists and OBL and towards the EU?

	26-03-2004 10:31									#25
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'm talking about warming up to Libya for after Gadaffi is gone. Wouldn't it be good to be able to influence them away from the likes of the Wahabbists and OBL and towards the EU?

I have no problem with warming relations with Libya even now. However, I still have reservations about Gadafi if he truly has changed. I suspect he has. Libyans need to experience modernization and not go down the same way as Saudi Arabia.

	26-03-2004 10:33									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Most of the educated people fled Libya decades ago.

And most idiotic Spaniards fled a decade ago?

	26-03-2004 10:33									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I have no problem with warming relations with Libya even now. However, I still have reservations about Gadafi if he truly has changed. I suspect he has. Libyans need to experience modernization and not go down the same way as Saudi Arabia.

And we have reached agreement.

	26-03-2004 10:35									#28
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Giancarlo, depends what the past action where. Talked bad behind your back? Ok forgiven. Gaddafi? No freaking way.

This is like mingling with the terrorists. You are either fighting terrorism or not, and that dude sure is not. Even if he was to give any kind of information, that is only because he wants to benefit from it. He's a greedy little ****er make no mistake about it, and a bad person.

It's the biggest mistake to trust anyone that shady ever again. He wants something and that's why he's warming up. What he's about is unforgivable when it comes to forming alliances.

No getting soft on terrorism. Never.

	26-03-2004 10:37									#29
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You also have to hold out hope, Pekka. Reform, and stop sponsoring terrorism, and things can get better for you and your people.

Nothing but stick won't get us very far.

	26-03-2004 10:41									#30
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Sounds like a lot of double standards here, and hypocricy. I'm not saying we shoudlnt' listen what he has to say and the information.

IF he has information, he should come forward without any benefitting. We decide if we want to reward him for it, and it should be no bigger than a thank you card.

This only tells me that he is withholding information, and to me that doesn't say 'against terrorism from day one'.
That says a greedy little bastard.

If he has info, he must come and tell it. When that happens, he is still not our allie.

What next? Osama wisenes up and 'yeah ok no problemo'.