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joncha is offline joncha
Emperor
North of FOPOG
Jan 2003
time: 21:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 10:49
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It worked for Musharraf.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 10:52 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
This is like mingling with the terrorists. You are either fighting terrorism or not, and that dude sure is not.


Prove that he isn't.

He'll be dead soon enough because he is getting very old.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:03
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Prove that Gaddafi isn't fighting terrorism?

So let the bastard die.. who cares. I don't. I don't wish him painful death, but I won't by crying my eyes out then.

It's really very simple. Let's look at some problems in the past, mingling with the people of shady things. What comes to first my mind is Saddam and Bin Laden, nice fellows they were. Even when they were bastards afterwards, it's no excuse for Gaddafi.

It's just that simple, if he has information, he comes forward. But no, he wants to benefit. So what's wrong with that some people might ask. The problem is, that if there would be no obvious benefits for him, he wouldn't give the information. Now that is not fighting terrorism in my books.

And that's exactly what's happening, and it doesn't make it any better that he might come up with information after he recieved his bonuses. Again it shows his true colors.

Or else the 'you are either with or against us' rhetorics is 100% bullshit and out of the window. It's sick and disgusting, and shouts out loud 'DOUBLE STANDARDS'!!

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:04 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Prove he hasn't had a change in heart.

quote:
Or else the 'you are either with or against us' rhetorics is 100% bullshit and out of the window. It's sick and disgusting, and shouts out loud 'DOUBLE STANDARDS'!!


That's ****. That is total crap. If Gadafi was not complying and opening up his country, I would have no reservations in taking him out. But don't you dare accuse me of having double standards, you half brained moron.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
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Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:07
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Change in heart? It doesn't matter! He can't be excused of the past, it's too heavy.

And this is not double standards? I never called you having double standards. But since you took it personally and retaliated with insults, take it as you wish.

Hey, I'm not the one wishing Gaddafi welcome and believe he is now a good person. And it doesn't even matter if he was. I believe in Christanity, but this dude has had more the one chance to turn his life.

This is what's now happening, negotiating with the terrorists. THat's what's happening. Then people say how Spain was defeated by terrorists because they could have an effect to their policies.. this is no different, in fact it's worse.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:09 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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You are seriously messed up in the head. I don't even know why anybody bothers talking to you. You can continue to rant your f**king head off, but it doesn't make it true nor does it make it factual.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:10
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hey, at least I'm not Gaddafi fanboy. Keep supporting ex-terrorists. I don't, I have principals and backbone.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:26
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This went well.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:28 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
hey, at least I'm not Gaddafi fanboy. Keep supporting ex-terrorists. I don't, I have principals and backbone.


You are nothing but a wuss with the backbone of jellow. I am not his fanboy. In fact I hate the socialist policies he mounts his nation on. He drove his country into the ground. But if he opens up during the last years you might aswell give him that chance.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
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Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:35
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Giancarlo, You didn't address my points I made at all. You only started insults.

Do you think there is a difference between ex-terrorist and a terrorist? I don't.

I never said we should turn our backs if he has something to say. If he wants to open up his country, sure why not. But he shouldn't get any benefits from telling the information. Withhelding the information he is helping terrorists.

In I'm too tired even to debate about this, because we're talking about Gadaffi, and not some lesser guy. No support for terrorists what so ever, in any form.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
time: 22:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:38
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Pekka, do you think that the West was wrong to engage in discussions with Gorbachev?

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
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Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:40
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Gorbachev != terrorist.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:51
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Oh. The West was not engaged in an expensive, prolonged, bloody conflict with the regime he represented?

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:53
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So now Gorbachev is a terrorist?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 11:59
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No, but he was a part of a regime that the West regarded as impossible to negotiate with at one point.

Nothing was lost by talking to him, in fact a great deal was gained. Nothing will be lost by talking with people like Gadaffi who seem to have put aside the sword of terrorism long ago. In fact, much might be gained.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:20
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Northern Africa and especially the Algerian coastal populations ( Lybia too, with the right standard of living ), can be opened up to the west. It's very very probable. Now having people like Buteflika, and Qaddafi there as our allies for change is problematic for three reasons:

a) They're are murderous *******s ( But when fighting folks like the GIA, I don't think that you really blame buteflika on that one.)
b) They won't always play along, since their aims aren't personal freedoms for their citizens, war on terror or the like, but power, mostly ( again, In Qadaffi's case, We can't really be sure. The guy is so intoxicated by power, that he's a riddle, really)
c) They are relatively weak, in their position. When they die, a shitstorm may arise, and put all assets in great risk. This is esp. true in Qadaffi's case.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:21
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I would have to agree. Giving something to Gadaffi shows (to other "bad guys") that being reasonable can lead to favorable outcomes.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:25 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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He's in good company. Along with the likes of the House Saud, Musharraf, Karimov, Mubarak, and soon enough al-Bashir (we've been making overtures towards Sudan lately), he's another ally of ours that's a great advocate of freedom in the region.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:26
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What do you think about the French boy Buteflika, Ramo?

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:28
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notyoueither, we're not on the same frequency. I never said Gadaffi can't come with the info. I said let's hear it. I never said he can't open up the country. I'm saying, we should never offer him our alliance and make him personally benefit, or in other words bribe him for the information.

I repeat, if he has information, he should come forward with it and fight terrorism. He keeps back, he supports terrorism and is looking for hand outs for his info.
And yet there are people who defend him here.

If that's the way to go, we can't ever talk about 'you are either with us or against us' anymore. Or 'if you harbour terrorist' or help them anyway, you would be against us. That's just gone with the wind.

We can still gain, if he comes forward we'll gain. If he decides not to, he just sealed his faith, and we should kidnap the bastard and get the info out or what ever, but then they just declared war from the terrorist side to us.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:30 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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He's a bastard too.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:31
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Well, all of them are, really. But what would you do if you had to fight the GIA?

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:37 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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The army has had just as little regard for human life as the GIA and FIS. I don't think that's what it takes to crush militant Islamism.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:39
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AFAIK, the army doesn't "clean up" entire villages.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 12:53 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Sometimes it does (there's been some testimony about security forces participating in these massacres), although it's true that's more the realm of the Islamists. However, the magnitude of total repression is comparable. There've been countless, countless numbers of "disappearances," extra-judicial killings and so forth attributed to the army.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 13:03
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And the Islamists scalp their victims alive, and torture them. Don't you remember the movie of what happened when an Army convoy came under attack? They're ****ing merciless. Sort of people I'd gladly kill.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 13:07 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Giancarlo, You didn't address my points I made at all. You only started insults.

Do you think there is a difference between ex-terrorist and a terrorist? I don't.

I never said we should turn our backs if he has something to say. If he wants to open up his country, sure why not. But he shouldn't get any benefits from telling the information. Withhelding the information he is helping terrorists.

In I'm too tired even to debate about this, because we're talking about Gadaffi, and not some lesser guy. No support for terrorists what so ever, in any form.


I'm calling you a nescient, unforgiving fool. If we had you in charge of foreign relations, we might aswell nuke Libya. He is not only telling information.. he is opening his country up.

Pekka is offline Pekka
Chieftain
em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 13:09
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Oh yes Lord Praise Gadaffi the Righteous

Like I said many times, let's hear what he has to say, let him open the country up, and offer nothing back.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 13:10 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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quote:
And the Islamists scalp their victims alive, and torture them. Don't you remember the movie of what happened when an Army convoy came under attack? They're ****ing merciless. Sort of people I'd gladly kill.


I agree with you on that (except for maybe the killing part ). All I'm saying is that the army is the same way. In fact, I'd say that the Algerian gov't is one of the most oppressive in the world.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:34
  Old Post 26-03-2004 13:11 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Oh yes Lord Praise Gadaffi the Righteous

Like I said many times, let's hear what he has to say, let him open the country up, and offer nothing back.


You said that we would have to be unreasonable with him and possibly drive him into a Kim Jong Il type of disaster. If you ran the world, there would be many Kim Jong Il like rulers.

 
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