26-03-2004 14:50									#91
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Gaddafi is a terrorist plain and simple - he is responsible for terrorist attacks IN the UK!

This guy is responsible for the deaths of 271 men, women and children in this country - that is MORE than the amount killed in Madrid a couple of weeks ago!

He is also guilty of supporting the IRA, allowing them to kill yet more UK citizens!

Iraq was invaded because it might strike at the UK in the future - Libya suceeded!!!

As for the WMD, the west says it is satisfied that he has stopped all his WMD programmes - how can they be sure if they were so sure Iraq had WMD and couldn't f*cking find any!!?

This is hypocrisy of the highest order, the West doesn't care about whether these people are terrorists, all it cares about is greasing the wheels of greed - which is why Shell completed a huge hydrocarbon fuels contract with Libya on the very same day that Tony Blair shook Gaddafi's hand!

	26-03-2004 14:58									#92
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Giancarlo, I didn't attack you on personal level. And I said earlier on this thread, early on, that we should hear him out but not give him anything in exchange. By this I of course mean that we'd be paying for this information in any way. He can open up the country, for the benefit of the Libyan people. But we shouldn't get him anything for it personally, as in no deals in exchange for the information. And that we shouldn't ever consider him as an allie. These were my first points. And that if he refuses to give the info, then he is to be considered as an enemy, and that now he should be considered the bad guy who is just inactive these days.

	26-03-2004 15:01									#93
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I think you should study international relations. Dealing with him is the way things are done. If he cooperates and gives more freedom to his people it will go forward. If not, this will not happen. Personally, you previously accused me of having the desire of dealing with a terrorist, well that I do take on a very personal level.

	26-03-2004 15:04									#94
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and we must all love the great leader...

gadaffi is a good man now
dictator, (ex?)-terrorist, guilty of 275 deaths and god knows how many more, ...

musharaf is a good man now
dictator, one of the few to recognise the taliban as the official governement of afghanistan, leader of the only fundamentalist country in the world that actually has WMD, exporting this technology to other sh!tholes ...

pekka is right on this one. let him give everything he knows, let him open his country, let him give up his power, and then let him be tried for the murder of 275 people.

and fez, why is what osama did so much worse than what gadaffi did ? because he attacked the us ? because your confortable little home was soiled ?

	26-03-2004 15:05									#95
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Yes but I assumed you were for offering him money for it or some other benefits, because you seemed to have a problem with my suggestion that was just that no offers for him. And I said that it would be like bribing him if he would benefit like that from it. And I always said we should hear him out though and give him a chance to speak, but that even if he would give us ACCURATE information on many things that would turn out to have great outcomes, he shouldn't be thought as a saint, but a bastard who did something right at the end of his life.

	26-03-2004 15:07									#96
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis and we must all love the great leader... gadaffi is a good man now dictator, (ex?)-terrorist, guilty of 275 deaths and god knows how many more, ... musharaf is a good man now dictator, one of the few to recognise the taliban as the official governement of afghanistan, leader of the only fundamentalist country in the world that actually has WMD, exporting this technology to other sh!tholes ... pekka is right on this one. let him give everything he knows, let him open his country, let him give up his power, and then let him be tried for the murder of 275 people. and fez, why is what osama did so much worse than what gadaffi did ? because he attacked the us ? because your confortable little home was soiled ?

Please, mr moron provide new arguments. Gadafi did a lot of bad. But if we get him to come clean that is better than having him go off on the Kim Jong Il road.. but of course communists like you want that for your political agenda in criticizing George W. Bush. By the way Musharraf is not fundamentalist... he is a stablizing factor in the country and overthrew a completely corrupt government. There is still corruption and most inquires have found scientists selling the technology without the Pakistani governments notice.

And learn how to spell. What the hell does this mean: "because your confortable little home was soiled ?"

No offense but some of you are really full of yourselves. Bah.. who cares what you think anyways. Not like you can direct anything in this world.

	26-03-2004 15:08									#97
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And because of this assumption, that I thought you said my way to deal with it is unreasonable, I thought you mean to give him benefits for negotiating. This is why I brought up the whole thing with if he is a terrorist or not after paying money for it. Because if so, we'd be actually negotiating with a terrorist and offering him benefits for telling what he should be telling us anyway making him withheld information from us and supporting the terrorist right now, or if he's not a terrorist anymore, then I wanted to know why a terrorist can pay money and get that label to go away.

	26-03-2004 15:09									#98
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I don't advocate giving him anything until there are results. Not just mere negotiating. Don't even try to twist my words on this, especially when it comes to Gadafi. If he truly wants something good for his people, he can open up the country for investment and pass on leaving at least one good thing he did.

	26-03-2004 15:12									#99
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yeah I didn't exclude this option of opening his country up. It would be green light, but I was just saying we shouldn't give him personally anything. If he wants to do something good for his country, he should be able to do that for sure.

I don't think we should give him anything even if the results are good. This doesn't exclude not welcoming his choice of opening up the country.

	26-03-2004 15:13									#100
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you're the one who says it's ok to negotiate with him....
but you would never negotiate with terrorst wouldn't you.

so check your definition of a terrorist, birdbrain

	26-03-2004 15:14									#101
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis you're the one who says it's ok to negotiate with him.... but you would never negotiate with terrorst wouldn't you. so check your definition of a terrorist, birdbrain

Why don't you go bash your head into a wall, peanut brain? Maybe whatever is messed up can get fixed.

"I don't think we should give him anything even if the results are good. This doesn't exclude not welcoming his choice of opening up the country."

Foreign Direct Investment is giving him something.

	26-03-2004 15:16									#102
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But if he REALLY wants to help his country, he would say everything he knows and step down from power.

	26-03-2004 15:17									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka But if he REALLY wants to help his country, he would say everything he knows and step down from power.

Why don't you go ask him to then?

	26-03-2004 15:18									#104
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Sure. If I'd be given the authority to do that with the proper entourage, sure no problem. But since that's not happening in real life, the opportunity to that, it doesn't matter what would happen.

But you agree, that this option would be best for Libya?

	26-03-2004 15:20									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka But you agree, that this option would be best for Libya?

I am not sure who would replace Gadafi. I'm not sure it would be the best option.

	26-03-2004 15:22									#106
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Surely there would be a need for new strong leader, but let's face it he's a problem to the West, and if there was another leader that was not him because of his past, things would be much better for Libya. Just like if Saddam wasn't in power in Iraq. If he truly wanted the best of the people, he would have stepped down a long time ago. Because it the country was not so much a problem to the West or the rest of the world than the man himself.

	26-03-2004 15:23									#107
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Name somebody who would replace Gadafi.

	26-03-2004 15:24									#108
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This question is the same as 'name somebody who could replace Saddam' pre-war era.

	26-03-2004 15:27									#109
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I'm not talking about Saddam.

But whatever. You're hopeless in debating with.

I'm going to bed.. it is also 2:30AM..

	26-03-2004 15:30									#110
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Yes but the situation is same.

Saddam was known to be bad for the country and stepping down would have been the best solution for the Iraqi people. Who would have replaced him? Almost impossible question if you're not very familiar with the Iraqi politics.

Same for Gaddafi. If he would step down, West would most likely open up more to Libya. Who would replace him? Who knows, to answer that question the person should be expert on Libyan politics and know a lot of people there.

But one thing I think is for sure, and that is Gaddafi was a terrorist, is a terrorist and a terrorist running a country can never be a good thing in the long run, and if that terrorist would step down, it would eventually be better for the country.

	26-03-2004 15:35									#111
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but it basically comes down to this:

You either think that there is a small chance, that a terrorist can be the best possible choice to be a leader of a country in some scenarios.

OR

You think that Gaddafi is not a terrorist.

You can't bypass this by saying I'm a child and can't debate.

	26-03-2004 15:39									#112
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And earlier when I asked if you wold think a terrorist can pay his way out or if Gaddafi is a terrorist or not (same question basically).

You can't pay your way out of being a terrorist scum. Thus Gaddafi is a terrorist (old one) and it's ok to negotiate with terrorists. And this is why I said double standards in the first place.

OR

Gaddafi is not a terrorist, so it's ok to negotiate. But saying this would mean also, that even if you do terrorist killing hundreds of people or more, being a legit big time terrorist, you can get away unpunished, by paying money and not be a terrorist anymore.

There's just no way out of this loop.

	26-03-2004 15:42									#113
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BUT if you say, that Gaddafi should not be given anything in exchange for the information and if he refuses to give that information now, he should be considered as an active enemy big time. If he gives the information, it would be welcomed, but nothing would be given to this man. This is what you said earlier, and this doesn't include any actual negotiating with him or anything, so it wouldn't be negotiating with a terrorist.

However, we continued that if he should step down or not, so ... terrorist can't lead a country in this world these days. That's what I think. Stepping down is only option. And after that he should be captured, brought to justice and tried.

	26-03-2004 15:46									#114
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And before you say anything, I point out that I left a way out of this, if you agree that he should step down, be caught and tried. That way, we deal with terrorism same way everywhere.

Anything else, leaving him in power and not even saying anything about it, is well.. leaving a terrorist in power. Leaving a terrorist in power elsewhere and attacking them elsewhere can't be anything else except.. double standards.

I don't major in International Relations or anything like that, but if it teaches you anywhere to negotiate with terrorists, I'd say ask your money back pronto.

and letting Gaddafi live is a big prize granted to him every single morning he wakes up by the West.

Last edited by Pekka on 26-03-2004 at 15:52

	26-03-2004 16:06									#115
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Pekka, you should read a bit more about British history before getting excited over negotiating with terrorists. We have a long history of it when it is the only realistic way to solve a problem.

Examples - most of the ex-British colonies in Africa were handed over to be run by people that Britain had denounced as terrorists. Begin (once Israeli Prime Minister) would have been hanged as a terrorist by the British if they had captured him in 1947/48. The Republic of Ireland exists because Britain struck a deal with people that it had considered terrorists. A similar process is going on right now in Northern Ireland. Britain brokered a deal between the Rhodesian government and "terrorists" to create Zimbabwe (perhaps not a shining success story ). And the list goes on.

If you look at the history of Britain, the USA, France and quite a few other countries over the period since 1945 you will find a trail of atrocities committed by people employed or supported by those countries.

I'm not excusing terrorism, it should be opposed by strong measures including pre-emptively killing those who carry out attacks, but the reality is that international politics is a dirty business and not determined by whether you are wearing a black stetson or a white one. If you think it is that simple, take a reality check.

	26-03-2004 16:13									#116
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Cerberus, I never claimed anything else, except that if we decide to really negotiate with Gaddafi, it's not what the talks about the terrorism were and still are. 'you are either with us, or against us'. It's pretty simple in this case. If we negotiate with Gaddafi, this is gone with the wind. Yes?

What ever happened in the history of negotiations I'm not even referring to. I'm referring to what is happening now and what is said to be done to terrorism. So I'm not the one wearing the stetson, I'm pointing out double standards.

	26-03-2004 16:19									#117
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I must admit, I am a little surprised.

When Gadaffi first came to power, he was actually a rather liberal leader. I have friends who lived there at the time and they said they had no problems despite being European - that Gadaffi actually appeared socialist, trying to help the poor and such. Obviously I don't know if this is true, whether my friends had a true picture of what was going on, but this is how it seemed to them while living there.

The claim is that Gadaffi only turned to terrorism when he realised that he couldn't fight the multinationals who were robbing the Libyan people of thier wealth. So maybe this change is really a step back to what he was before.

Do any of you know of anything to support or destroy this pov?

On the other hand, I am very suspicious. If the Americans had killed my 8 year old daughter (was she 8? - I can't recall) I would stop at nothing for revenge (even though I know it is wrong too). I certainly wouldn't be shaking the hands of western leaders. So maybe he is up to something....

	26-03-2004 18:54									#118
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Well... I'm cautiously optimistic about this.

It's been a long haul since Lockerbie - but it seems that Libya is heading in the right direction.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if Gaddafi gets knocked off and a new Islamic revolution happened - but maybe that would have happened anyway if Libya stayed isolated.

As for getting justice for Yvonne Fletcher - I doubt it. There's this little thing called diplomatic immunity that covers all embassy wrongdoing.

There's also a conspiracy theory that the fatal shot wasn't fired from there - but that's mostly based on rumour rather than facts.

	26-03-2004 19:30									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Cerberus, I never claimed anything else, except that if we decide to really negotiate with Gaddafi, it's not what the talks about the terrorism were and still are. 'you are either with us, or against us'. It's pretty simple in this case. If we negotiate with Gaddafi, this is gone with the wind. Yes? What ever happened in the history of negotiations I'm not even referring to. I'm referring to what is happening now and what is said to be done to terrorism. So I'm not the one wearing the stetson, I'm pointing out double standards.

Last time I checked, the US was holding regular talks with Arafat.

Ariel Sharon committed terrorist acts when he was a young man.

You have to learn the difference between rhetoric and realpolitik.

If you want peace you must have understanding.

If you want any level understanding or Arabic nations, you must understand the culture and the rhetoric. You must appear strong, you must talk tough, or you cannot lead.

Qadaffi's rhetoric, like many arab leaders, has always been much more bark than bite.

Bush is given to major rhetoric, and 'you are either with us, or against us' is a prime example. Not even the chickenhawks are that black and white.

The whole negotiate with terrorists is a chicken and egg argument.

You say never negotiate with a terrorist.

I say, show me a terrorist, and I'll show you someone the powers that be have refused to negotiate with.

You cannot win a war with terrorists. These people have legitimate issues, and are willing to die for them. We have BMWs, and are willing to ***** about gas prices.

They don't want to be terrorists. But their situation is being totally ignored unless they engage in terror acts.

It is not a question of right or wrong. Really. Do you want them to stop? Or not?

Talk.

Don't kill.

	27-03-2004 00:56									#120
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Mad Viking, what the hell was this all about?

Seriously, are you trying to tell me not to take everything literally? Are you trying to tell me to learn realpolitik and and rhetorics? When have I ever said anything else! I said these are double standards! Listen, you can have all the terms and words going and flying around, it doesn't change the fact that this is double standards.

I never denied listening Gaddafi. I denied being his allie. There's a difference right there, like it says in the topic, I answered NEVER.

So, because of realpolitiks and rhetorics, this is not doublestandard? yeah right. I know rhetorics is mostly bullshit, but we have a serious problem here if these things go down, we have a problem of hypocricy and doing the other thing and saying the other thing. You can't cover the double standard issue saying it was rhetorics. Everyone knows it was exactly that. The difference is, you can't use the rhetorics when it suits you and do the other thing when it works better and say 'hey I'm doing what I said'.

Yes, terrorist are poor people who are oppressed and have no other choices, because we are robbing them with our greed so we can drive your BWS's. I feel bad for them already *tear*.

And hell yes it's a question of right and wrong. If you start being allies with Gaddafi, it's not right. I'm not saying you shouldn't have relations to Libya.

I said never negotiate with a terrorists, let me be more accurate by what I meant. Never bribe a terrorist and never be extorted by a terrorist, never agree to pay terrorist anything in exchange for something. Because the cycle continues, and it never stops..