27-03-2004 00:59									#121
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Pekka, thank goodness you are not in charge of any foreign affairs of any country.

	27-03-2004 01:00									#122
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But no, sure the reasons of terrorism in different grops and areas should be studied so I'm not saying that it's the same everywhere and for same reasons.

	27-03-2004 01:01									#123
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Giancarlo, maybe so, but pointing out double standard is not exactly doing politics. You didn't once again address any of the points I made to as why it is double standards.

and I saw Tony Blair shaking the hand of Gaddafi so I don't know why you're so upset about it.

	27-03-2004 01:05									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Giancarlo, maybe so, but pointing out double standard is not exactly doing politics. You didn't once again address any of the points I made to as why it is double standards. and I saw Tony Blair shaking the hand of Gaddafi so I don't know why you're so upset about it.

I don't have a double standard in this regard. Nor does Tony Blair. Dealing with Gadafi is better then letting him go off and do things his way. He was brought to the terms of the west, Gadafi did not dictate the terms to the west. He tried that before and it got some of his family killed.

	27-03-2004 01:13									#125
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Giancarlo, well, we're not that far off of how both of us think should be done, and this is going nowhere further anymore so I think it's no use to argue about this any longer.

	27-03-2004 01:15									#126
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Pekka, can't you see you have been Fezzed? You are such a punk magnet, they all hate you... Go hit someone your own size.

	27-03-2004 01:15									#127
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Fez, don't you know that Blair is a liberal? How can you trust him?

	27-03-2004 01:17									#128
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Shut up ollie, you were never a good contributor to this forum.

	27-03-2004 01:17									#129
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Trolling aside, my neighbour 2-300 meters from where I sit, was killed in Lockerbie. Her parents is still waiting for the 10 M$ as far as I know.

	27-03-2004 01:18									#130
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quote: Shut up ollie, you were never a good contributor to this forum.

	27-03-2004 01:24									#131
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chemical ollie, Nice avatar!

	27-03-2004 01:25									#132
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

chemical ollie, I can bet my butt that goverment takes massive taxes off of that money though.

	27-03-2004 01:28									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka chemical ollie, Nice avatar!

Who can be republican with a princess like that?

(To clarify: republican as opposed to royalist. Right-wingers are royalists, left-wingers are republicans)

	27-03-2004 01:28									#134
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Bin Laden has promised to be nice - Blair has offered to meet with him to see if he has any oil.

	27-03-2004 01:37									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka chemical ollie, I can bet my butt that goverment takes massive taxes off of that money though.

Very likely. If not in as immediate income tax, surely as fortune tax (a few % per year of a rich person's savings). But there are discussions within the government to discontinue the fortune taxing, which is good. With my expensive house, I'm on just under the threshold to pay it myself.

80 M$ is more than any person has ever won on a lottery or pools in Sweden, and the damage pay would make my neighbours the richest people in my town, by far. But they are very modest and humble people, who would rather want their daughter back than take any blood money.

	27-03-2004 01:40									#136
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oh right, that's Madeleine. Nice..

Yeah I'm sure and wouldn't ever doubt if they could have their daughter back, they would in an instant instead of any other option. So I hope they get as much money as possible.

	27-03-2004 01:45									#137
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Pekka

I'm not sure "double standard" is a useful term in this case.

Sort of like, the US stating that all foreign nations are different, so you can't expect us to react the same standard way to North Korea and Iraq.

I like your distinctions about talking with terrorists; but again, not negotiating with terrorists is rhetoric. The same people who say they won't inevitiably trade POWs with them. (Isreal, for example). What is the difference between "buying information" and "bribing"? Are you saying no intelligence operatives gathering info about bad guys from other bad guys?

You don't think Syria supports terrorism? Yet the US and Canada are cooperating with them in exchanging info. (And sending innocent Syrian-Canadians to spend a year in Syrian torture cells, but that's another story.)

	27-03-2004 01:58									#138
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Air Bin Ladin is a company in Texas, according to Michael Moore. We all know that he does not always tell the truth and the whole truth, (only the awful truth) but I'm surprised that he is the only one who have discussed it in public (as far as I know). I have never seen anyone counter his statements about the close bonds between the Bush and the Bin Ladin families and the suggestion that Arabs from the Bin Ladin family were allowed to fly freely over US and all the way home on September 12-13 2001.

	27-03-2004 02:09									#139
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What exactly is the porblem here, besides the wonderfully brain killing Pekka-Fez "debate"?

Ghaddafi decided non-confrontational policies will serve his plans better, and right now proclaming him a changed man, as long as Bush and Blair can use it to strenghten their points (bush:Iraq worked, Blair: diplomacy works) then everyone wins.

	27-03-2004 02:10									#140
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Laura Bush is a Bin Ladin on her maternal grandmother's side.

	27-03-2004 02:16									#141
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What exactly is the porblem here, besides the wonderfully brain killing Pekka-Fez "debate"? Ghaddafi decided non-confrontational policies will serve his plans better, and right now proclaming him a changed man, as long as Bush and Blair can use it to strenghten their points (bush:Iraq worked, Blair: diplomacy works) then everyone wins.

Except the Libyan people.
Remember in the last few months freeing the Iraqi " people-from-a-ruthless-dictator-and-establishing-a-democracy-in-the-Middle-East-that-will-be-the-example-to-other-arab-nations-in- the-region" had become the Bush/Blair mantra. Deflects from the facts that there were no WMD, Iraq is in anarchy and the war on terrorism is failing.

Why shouldn't the poor Libyan (or Saudi or Syrian) people be liberated ?

	27-03-2004 02:45									#142
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The Lybian people are not living in horror. Certainly Ghaddafi is an autocrat, but whether he is a ruthless despot is another thing. The people of Lybia sadly are not living any worse than the people of China and they sure as heck live much better than 90% of the people of Africa. Better living in dictatorial Lybia than democratic Nigeria.

Heck, better living in SA than NIgeria, or Ethiopia, or Eritrea, or Guatemala

	27-03-2004 02:48									#143
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Or Idaho

	27-03-2004 06:45									#144
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Gadaffi is an unstable man that is probably taking the West for a ride. We need more time to make sure he is being sincere.

If he is, good luck to him, if he isn't we should leave well alone.

	27-03-2004 09:28									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh When Gadaffi first came to power, he was actually a rather liberal leader. I have friends who lived there at the time and they said they had no problems despite being European - that Gadaffi actually appeared socialist, trying to help the poor and such. Obviously I don't know if this is true, whether my friends had a true picture of what was going on, but this is how it seemed to them while living there. The claim is that Gadaffi only turned to terrorism when he realised that he couldn't fight the multinationals who were robbing the Libyan people of thier wealth. So maybe this change is really a step back to what he was before.

I heard this as well, that Gadaffi is a socialist. Supposedly, the Libyans get a share of the profit from oil exports every month. It is said that because of this, Gadaffi and the US hasn't exactly got along.

	27-03-2004 09:32									#146
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Now, that would be too good to be true. Why don't we give the neo-cons a chance?

	27-03-2004 09:33									#147
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Sponsorship of terrorism of course had nothing to do with it.

	27-03-2004 09:41									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I heard this as well, that Gadaffi is a socialist. Supposedly, the Libyans get a share of the profit from oil exports every month. It is said that because of this, Gadaffi and the US hasn't exactly got along.

Actually, he was quite a socialist. Go so far as to say Communist and you would not be too far off. Except he did it from an Islamic viewpoint. Hense his little 'red' book was green. Confiscation of property from land owners and redistribution and such were the same though. As is/was suppression of fundamentalist Islam, curiously enough; full beards are frowned on.

Quite a ball of contradictions (from our viewpoint, that is) and someone who is definitely not well understood by very many people in the West.

	27-03-2004 09:45									#149
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Sponsorship of terrorism of course had nothing to do with it.

If this is the criterion the US should be really on bad terms with itself by now

	27-03-2004 09:52									#150
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I have to say that I agree with Giancarlo (!). Why not give Quadaffi another chance if it seems like he has changed his ways? That is the only just thing to do, IMO.

Quadaffi, or Gadaffi, or however the heck you spell it, is (as someone previously mentioned) a survivalist. He hasn't changed, we have simply made certain options more beneficial to him than others.