27-04-2004 05:25									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Mathemagician gameleague, what is a game exploit to you? Mine under city was the game intended to do that?
Switch rush buy was the game intended to do that?

It does but if the designers had intended for people who play the game to use these bugs do you not think they would have included them in the rules or the tutorial? Of course they would have after all a game is designed to be played the same by all players or it's not much of a game is it? Rules they make or break a game.

I too have seen many oddies and have the saves. One game I am in now, pop up says x attacked your x ( fill in the x) then it says under it your have discovered a new government ..... WTF is that. New one for me. I am also seeing way too much mine under city etc in games they should not be being used.

#2-Kinda like "laws of the land" They have been defined here and a multitude of times.. Gl too many times...

Come on Troll give up your goods
I created a monster picture poster

Last edited by blackice on 27-04-2004 at 05:33

	27-04-2004 05:27									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician where do you get all those pictures from, troll ?

ok..go to WWW.Google.com

{TYPE IN ABBA RA KA DABBA RA..HOKUS POKUS NOSE COME WITH MUCUS...

Um not exactly..try this}

then go to images

type in a subject...

shows a huge picture category..

"right click" and save as and start your collection..

Basically depending upon the post or response..is what I go looking for!!!

	27-04-2004 05:33									#93
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll BUT the point here is this math..we are talking about blantant abuse... Hope this clears it up 4 u?

there is nothing unclear about that.
what i wrote there was a general note on cheating.
if you dont know it and the information is not easily accessible, you shouldnt be punished.

as far as paul is regarded, im sure he knows what is allowed and what not. so remains the question whether he committed what blackice claims.

all im asking is that blackice be aware of the fact that anyone who hasnt got this personal experience with paul will need more than his claims to believe what he is saying.

if there is one side saying so, the other so, a proof is what is needed. at least to get any kind of legitimate decision done. and isnt that the goal of blackice' posting the issue here ?
else, we can spend the rest of this eternity argueing and expressing what we are convinced of respectively.

	27-04-2004 05:34									#94
	Put an end to popups!

I think what i read on H's CtP site a long time is still right, every online game will have its bugs, and even if it doesnt have obvious exploits, people will make programs to alter the game the way they want, no game is free from cheaters.

In the end it comes down to trust in each of the people youre playing, thats why any large competitive online league will be very difficult to maintain, but a small community can florish.

	27-04-2004 05:34									#95
	Suffering from ads?

Did you read throught the links provided Math?

	27-04-2004 05:36									#96
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by blackice Mathemagician gameleague, what is a game exploit to you? Mine under city was the game intended to do that?

I THINK it was intended, or at least would make the most sense, if the mine/farm didnt disappear when you found a city. and so we have the question again, what is the actual bug.

quote: Originally posted by blackice It does but if the designers had intended for people who play the game to use these bugs do you not think they would have included them in the rules or the tutorial?

quite honestly, no. they would likely not list all this stuff.

	27-04-2004 05:38									#97
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll Um not exactly..try this} then go to images type in a subject... shows a huge picture category.. "right click" and save as and start your collection.. Basically depending upon the post or response..is what I go looking for!!!

the same as what i am doing.
just curious.

quote: Originally posted by blackice Did you read throught the links provided Math?

i read all the posts. did i miss any links ?

	27-04-2004 05:43									#98
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Maquiladora exactly I quite like "H" he provided us with the save the opponents turn crack so you could actively save games without being the game starter. He disliked cheaters too and tried to do something about it. He was a nice guy too. Worth the trip to his site people if you have not already been there.

Filix did you use the switch rush buy? Did Yoda, did paul, did zeratul, ming I am sure the answer is yes, you?
They have all admitted to it's use and that is not the real issue here. The real issue is simply because one comes and tells this community they used it and here is what it does are they a hero? Did they still cheat? If they continued on to find more and not disclose them knowing full well these new one's were the same thing, cheats and not disclose them are they still cheating.

IMHO yes of course they are...

If someone here finds a new bug and does not tell the rest and uses it against people here to win games until someone finds out is it cheating?
Of course it is, the excuse you did not know does not wash, it can be over looked for rookies but anyone who has player here for any period of time 6 months or more knows the rules period.

	27-04-2004 05:49									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

well, id say in case of the farm under city bug, its not that clear which version is the bug and if building the farm during the right turn is merely the workaround.
it may be more clear in other cases, like rush buy switching.
what we lack is an authority to actually decide case by case if something 1.) is a bug, 2.) should have easily been identified by the respective player as a bug.

may i ask, blackice, what was your original intent when you started this discussion ? was it some sort of actions to be taken ?

	27-04-2004 05:52									#100
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician may i ask, blackice, what was your original intent when you started this discussion ? was it some sort of actions to be taken ?

to quote myself here, that question is quite important, because for a real action there is certainly more proof needed than for an agreement of several players that someone IS cheating.

as for proof, could you please dig up that quotes of paul for me, blackice ? if it is easy to find them, that is.

	27-04-2004 05:55									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: quite honestly, no. they would likely not list all this stuff.

Actually if I am not mistaken some of these bugs were designed as short cuts for the designers and NOT intended for use by the players. That was a direct quote if i am not mistaken by one of the designers refering to the switch bug. It was posted a long time back in GL that was the direct result of hundreds of emails sent to activision by players once the GL mods, fudged the ruling.
So i would disagree what games do you know of where they design it for you to figure it out?

None I am aware of they all come with rules and tutorials.

Mine under city is a powerful tool you think they left it out, for what reason would they leave switch rush buy out?
No I think you are barking up the wrong tree what game designer in thier right mind would leave out some of the powerful tricks of the game///
Now mine under city i can see an arguement for it but bottom line it would have to be agreed to by all players before the game starts and most important the opponent knows what it is how to use it before the game starts. If not IMHO the person using it would be cheating the other. Why? Because it is not in the rules, tutorial, or mentioned anywhere at all in the game files or game site.

It would then create an unfair advantage and the victory would be hollow. Kinda like playing a game with loaded dice only you can use...

I think you are ignoring the obvious Math, paul has admitted to it's use they all did... What more proof do you need?

I posted in response to Filix's comment paul does not cheat. He did he admitted to it, further more the ramping was never disclosed and paul continued to use that to defeat opponents knowing full well he was again using a bug an exploit to claim to be the hero, winner of all. No after all tis time you would figure paul would know what was acceptable honest gaming and what was not. Would'nt you?

	27-04-2004 06:06									#102
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by blackice quote: quite honestly, no. they would likely not list all this stuff. So i would disagree what games do you know of where they design it for you to figure it out?

not for me to figure out. just make a game complex and then forget to mention something in the tutorial. period.

it was only an example anyway.

quote: Originally posted by blackice Now mine under city i can see an arguement for it but bottom line it would have to be agreed to by all players before the game starts and most important the opponent knows what it is how to use it before the game starts. If not IMHO the person using it would be cheating the other. Why? Because it is not in the rules, tutorial, or mentioned anywhere at all in the game files or game site.

its useless to discuss what would have been had the bug just been discovered. it is known for a long time and the rules say it is cheating. so why do we argue about that ? i merely used this as an example for new bugs to be discovered.

quote: Originally posted by blackice I think you are ignoring the obvious Math, paul has admitted to it's use they all did... What more proof do you need?

first of all i would need THAT proof.
you still havent shown me where he did that.
("proof" as in "convincing a person undetermined in their opinion, so as to nullify contrary statements of third people")

also, you havent answered my question what you are leading to with this discussion.

unless i get a response on either of these, its time for me to drop out of this discussion.

	27-04-2004 06:51									#103
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Humm interesting, on another note I found this little tid bit while browsing my old files. Amazing what one saves.
Check this out:

For the benefit of all this is the low-down on how to configure your proxy server and the game to play Internet games through some kind of firewall. Turns out to be easier than originally anticipated. If you're messing around with proxy servers yourself then you should be able to follow this.

1 - PROXY SERVER

Create a UDP Mapping Service which maps to a server of your choice, eg, uk1.alink.activision.com. Use port 21157, which is what the server listens to.

2 - CIV:CTP

Edit the bootserv.txt in the ctp_program\ctp directory so that the second listing of the server on each line is replaced by the name of the proxy server on your LAN. For example, if your proxy server is called wingate, change

uk1.alink.activision.com uk1.alink.activision.com
to
uk1.alink.activision.com wingate

For more info on Activision server configurations please check out Dan Kegel's server FAQ: http://us4.alink.activision.com/anet.html.
Another article he has written on peer-to-peer networking across the Internet is at: http://alumni.caltech.edu/~dank/peer-nat.html

Now if I am not mistaken this should solve all the winxp problems. Note it gives what we have been trying to find the UDP port number. had this all the time simply forgot about it. DOH!

Dang the links are dead but the info should still be solid.

quote: I think you are ignoring the obvious Math, paul has admitted to it's use they all did... What more proof do you need? I posted in response to Filix's comment paul does not cheat. He did he admitted to it, further more the ramping was never disclosed and paul continued to use that to defeat opponents knowing full well he was again using a bug an exploit to claim to be the hero, winner of all. No after all tis time you would figure paul would know what was acceptable honest gaming and what was not. Would'nt you?

Math ask anyone around here of the original people it is common knowledge. Arguing this point with you is mute simply ask someone else.

	27-04-2004 07:23									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

got the bootserv modification, but i dont know what number 1 means. can you help me with that ? but if it takes a higher amount of concentration id rather do this another time as im pretty tired

	27-04-2004 07:23									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

btw, i have win 2000 pro, not win XP. will that be the same ?

	27-04-2004 07:53									#106
	Inflate your Upload Space

I should be the same with 2k basically it means you set up a proxy with the sever info like the nl server. I could walk ya through xp but I have not been on 2k in some time. But I am sure if you go to your network settings it has a proxy server walk through.

	28-04-2004 17:33									#107
	Inflate your Upload Space

i usually have sounds off. is there any additional information you gain in PBEM when you leave the sound on ? any other settings that should be on in order to gain more information ?

	28-04-2004 22:38									#108
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

a few things about combat and movement:

tipps
- if you have a road in a territory where there are still some fights going on and have railroad available, move your units, at the end of your turn make the roads railroads, the roads will be gone for one turn, your opponent will have to use the full movement cost of that terrain, and during your turn you will have fresh railroads to move on.

- in a road system with a nearby enemy, it may make more sense to place units with ZOC beside the road instead of on it. the enemy will have to either not use the roads at all or stop on the road, not being able to attack that unit during the same turn. but you will be able to attack him easily on the road the next turn, unless of course he pillaged that road.

question
another thing id like to check.
of course its not allowed to "rush buy" a medium farm by first building a small farm, then a medium farm immediately afterwards to have it done in one turn.
on the other hand, upgrading a finished improvement is naturally allowed.
but how about this situation:
i want to build a medium farm, but i only discover agricultural revolution next turn, so i build a small farm now, discover AR the next turn, upgrade the half-finished small farm to a medium farm.
the end result is still that i finished the medium farm in 2 turns, however i save the one turn where i didnt have AR.
what do you say ?

	29-04-2004 01:18									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Good tips on the road, i'd add especially good against tank, horse attacks.

I once built cities and disbanded them after building a road. I continued to do that with a road that lead far away from my civ. It was fun to hear the cries of you (*)&(^*&% after the game from the opponent.

	29-04-2004 01:43									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by blackice Good tips on the road, i'd add especially good against tank, horse attacks.

yes, if you position a simple phalanx on a mountain you can stop an army of tanks.

	29-04-2004 02:41									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yes one of the ironies of this game, it takes at least two jets to remove this spear chucker too.

	29-04-2004 07:02									#112
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by blackice Yes one of the ironies of this game, it takes at least two jets to remove this spear chucker too.

There was this fella years ago..Quebec was his handle..

he got so frustrated with me, because he was attacking my walled defended city with Phalanx..9 stacks..like 3 and couldn't figure why he would not win..

I tried to tell him.. with a 1 attack to my defense aint gonna get no victory

	29-04-2004 09:00									#113
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by blackice Yes one of the ironies of this game, it takes at least two jets to remove this spear chucker too.

Kinda like our buddy Bin Laden

	29-04-2004 09:59									#114
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician yes, if you position a simple phalanx on a mountain you can stop an army of tanks.

I thought this was true, too, until berXpert taught me a tough lesson about this. That "Impenetrable Phalanx" can easily be removed by two or three cannon blasts, allowing the rest of your tanks, (or cavalry, as was the case with berXpert), to blow by the pesky phalanx in the same turn.

	29-04-2004 15:36									#115
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll There was this fella years ago..Quebec was his handle.. he got so frustrated with me, because he was attacking my walled defended city with Phalanx..9 stacks..like 3 and couldn't figure why he would not win..

hehe. the only reason i attack a city with a phalanx is to feed rickety's slaver inside the city before i capture it. LOL


oh, and maybe to fill a stack to 9 if i want to make full use of my ranged units, as that actually increases the chance to get NO injury at all during a fight where you are largely superior.

	29-04-2004 15:41									#116
	Got spare money?

Gosh darnit, it's true

	29-04-2004 15:44									#117
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by quinns I thought this was true, too, until berXpert taught me a tough lesson about this. That "Impenetrable Phalanx" can easily be removed by two or three cannon blasts, allowing the rest of your tanks, (or cavalry, as was the case with berXpert), to blow by the pesky phalanx in the same turn.

sure, but it at least gives you the time your opponent needs to get a cannon to the front.
also, if you build a fortress around mr.phalanx-guy it will take several cannon blast during one turn.
if the road in question is your own, it should be possible to build a fortress there.

	29-04-2004 17:23									#118
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Mathemagician hehe. the only reason i attack a city with a phalanx is to feed rickety's slaver inside the city before i capture it. LOL oh, and maybe to fill a stack to 9 if i want to make full use of my ranged units, as that actually increases the chance to get NO injury at all during a fight where you are largely superior.

I often use an outdate unit to attack a city..
this way i know whats needed..to "accquire" the city

I often get a bunch of units blocking his replenishing routes so the "MOST" he can do is add one unit!!

That, BTW goes to SIFU (Rest-In-Peace Faded Glory Hole) and Sensei Black"Belt" Ice for teaching me them tricks...or strategies..

Peace
Grandpa "Old-&-Dazed-'N-Confused-But-Not-a-memeber-of-Led-Zeppelin" Troll

EDIT: LED ZEPPELIN WAS ONE OF ROCK 'N'ROLL'S GREATEST GROUPS----FER YOU YOUNG WHIPPER*SNAPPERS!!!

	29-04-2004 18:46									#119
	Inflate your Upload Space

Led Zep Phalanx on mountain

Once in a CtP2 MP game i had some 24 Knights doing nothing so just before getting Cavalry i threw them one-by-one at my opponents border city, i didnt take the city obviously, but it started at size 12 and ended at size 5 and the 40% chance of killing a pop by assault is the same in CtP1, although i havent had the chance to use it in CtP1 yet.

	29-04-2004 19:27									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Led Zep Phalanx on mountain Once in a CtP2 MP game i had some 24 Knights doing nothing so just before getting Cavalry i threw them one-by-one at my opponents border city, i didnt take the city obviously, but it started at size 12 and ended at size 5 and the 40% chance of killing a pop by assault is the same in CtP1, although i havent had the chance to use it in CtP1 yet.

Kinda like the

LOS ANGELAS POLICE DEPARTMENT CROWD CONTROL POLICIES IN EAST LOS ANGELAS & COMPTON AREAS