13-05-2004 14:53									#271
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf yep, CFC seems to have quite a few female players. drachen, actually, diathanus programmed the whole functionality of the mapfinder utility. moonsinger had the idea and did the GUI part. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...threadid=75992&

I stand corrected. Special thanks to Moonsinger and Dianthus for their Map generator utility. I really felt that I needed a good start to beat Sid and I had a second computer running generating maps for various tribes with at least one cow and one river tile. I also wanted to have an ocean start for early Curraghs feeling that I could move my capital to a better position later. I’m not sure that we’re going to need to have two cow starts in future games as our strategies improve, but for now I can only say that this little program saved me a lot of time. I'll post an early screenshot and you'll note that the start position is a mixed bag. Lots of good resourses close in but poor turf further out. On the other hand the settings were arid, cool, and 3 billion so I wasn't really expecting to get grass and rolling hills in three directions,

	13-05-2004 20:34									#272
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You can get by without bonus grassland at Sid, so this is a good start. I would prefer a few BG tiles if it was a Demi game.

	13-05-2004 21:32									#273
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 You can get by without bonus grassland at Sid, so this is a good start. I would prefer a few BG tiles if it was a Demi game.

Hey Vmxa1;

It's probably pretty hard to see but there are three BG tiles and one grass under forrest which could have a bonus. Then you add a wheat, an Ivory, 2 cows, and a goody hut. Not bad in my opinion

	13-05-2004 22:26									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage and then we were three...

Hey Mountain Sage;

I’m wondering if, in addition to the points you made in your post, you were able to compete with the AI in research because you streamlined your empire thereby reducing unit costs and corruption. As I posted, in my game Carthage seemed to be researching a little bit quicker than I was towards the end even in it’s reduced state, with no trades, with no tech theft, and in constant warfare with other civs. I had a completely improved core and solid periphery. I had captured Newton’s and Copernicus’s in 3/4 corrupt Carthage. I used my battle with Babylon as a leader factory and built several police stations etc. to improve the output of marginal cities. Most of my trash cities were set to wealth and my captured citizens were set to tax and science as needed and I still couldn’t keep the tech lead I got from ToE. So, I’m intrigued by your game and wonder if you’d care to post a save or two from just about anywhere after Education.

	14-05-2004 02:05									#275
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In every Sid game I have played out to the modern age, the KAI was able to research at a 4 or 5 turn pace. This means you cannot do it faster than them, the best you could do is match that pace.

I could not even get within a mile of that pace, even with a large empire and all the functional cities loaded with structures.

The maint for units would be anywhere from 150-240 per turn, but that is not enough to let me pass them or even catch them.

I remember in the last one, I could add 30% to the research and not move off the current turn rate. That rate would be in high twenties. Now I would be in Monarchy, so I lost beakers, but I was a comercial civ and I suspect that if I was in Republic, it would be the same. I would think the increased cost of unit support would eat the gains, not sure but with about 400 troops...

There may be something here to learn, but so far I have not been able to understand it. I am hoping to see some more runs from others that used a similar tack as MS and see more details along the way to shed light on what the consequences are of being in republic at those stages.

I just have not been able to get by with much less troops than I used and I though I was rather thin for Sid. In atttempts where I build less, I got in big trouble.

The progress is slow as the games are very long, so we do not see a lot of reports.

	14-05-2004 12:21									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen Hey Mountain Sage; I’m wondering if, in addition to the points you made in your post, you were able to compete with the AI in research because you streamlined your empire thereby reducing unit costs and corruption. So, I’m intrigued by your game and wonder if you’d care to post a save or two from just about anywhere after Education.

That's perfectly true. From the beginning, I wanted a not-so-big island, as to reduce corruption and avoid unnecessary costs. The fact that I was isolated until the discovery of Navigation gave me a big boost in gold by having no military costs. I had only posted military units on all tiles on the two islands on the east, as to avoid a possible invasion (the cannons in the victory screenshot). Then I put about 15 Caravels around my island as early warning units.

Then I did a mean trick: I built about 10-15 Privateers and put them off my shores. Twice the Celts sent the standard 1 Frigate-2 Galleons stacks towards my shores. My Privateers had lots of fun...

I will prepare a short AAR with a few screenshots this week-end and post them on Monday.

	14-05-2004 15:28									#277
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Thanks oh Sage one. I'll be looking for your post.

I did things a little differently because I like it when the galleys land on my island. Carthage had one spot they really liked to land on and I had a stack of trebs and Ancient Cavs just waiting for promotion. Probably no more anti-invasion units than you had early on although I was building defensive units in anticipation of my counter invasion.

Last edited by Drachen on 14-05-2004 at 15:39

	14-05-2004 23:06									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Then I did a mean trick: I built about 10-15 Privateers and put them off my shores. Twice the Celts sent the standard 1 Frigate-2 Galleons stacks towards my shores. My Privateers had lots of fun...

The std I see is 3 frigates and 1 galleon. Then 3 destroyers and one something.

Only in the very earliest stage do I see only one escort. As soon as they get one fleet attacked they shift to 3 to 1.

Did they not declare war on you after enounters with your privateers? I never build them so I am not familar with it.

	17-05-2004 14:20									#279
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Did they not declare war on you after enounters with your privateers? I never build them so I am not familar with it.

No, that's the beauty with Privateers, they are anonymous. Besides that, they are pretty useless...

	17-05-2004 14:23									#280
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Well, this is the long-sought AAR.
Unfortunately, when I play, I play and forget to put down in writing how the game unfolds. At least, this time, I kept some saves, just in case…

4000BC: as everybody knows by now, it’s not the best start, but the game won’t be won by a an additional wheat or a shielded grassland. The opening moves: Curragh, Warrrior, Curragh Warrior. I lacked Masonry (Palace pre-built) and Pottery (Granary) to be able to arrow for the GLibrary, therefore early contacts were my priority. As I started with Alphabet and BC, Writing was my first research at 50 turns.

2630BC: contacts with Egypt and the Celts. No trading yet with Egypt (+ Masonry, Pottery and B. Working) and the Celts (+ Masonry, Pottery, B. Working and WC).

2030BC: contacts with the Zulus and Aztecs. I traded Alphabet with Egypt for Masonry and Pottery. Now they have the Wheel and IW. The Celts lack Alphabet but have the Wheel, IW and WC. The Aztec have the Wheel, WC but lack CB. The Zulus lack Masonry and Alphabet but lack Masonry and Alphabet. As I don’t need any new techs right away to expand/improve my empire, I will refrain from trading for a while. 262 gold (+8) and Writing in 7 turns. Only 1 city (size 5, 2 Workers, lux 10%), with a Granary completed and a Temple in 1 turn.

1700BC: Writing long completed, Philosophy in 41 turns at 100%. 293 gold -3/turn.
A second town was added to our empire… Contacts with the Maya (+ the Wheel and WC, - Alphabet and CB). Egypt + the Wheel, WC, IW, Mysticism, - Writing. Zulus + the Wheel, IW, WC, - Masonry and Alphabet. The Celts + the Wheel, WC, IW and Mysticism, - Alphabet. Aztecs + the Wheel, IW, WC, - CB and Writing. All pretty impressive advances by he other civs, but without Alphabet/Writing, no means of being less isolated (except the Celts and the Zulus, of course).

1600BC: contact with Arabia. + the Wheel, WC and Mysticism, - Alphabet. Philosophy in 31 turn, -2/turn. A third city, Vino Tinto, was added to our glorious empire…

1075BC: Most civs discovered Polytheism, but were backwards in respect of Writing, except for the Zulus (parity), Celts (+ Polytheism) and China +CoL.

1000BC: bought Polytheism with Writing, traded it with China for CoL, and got the Republic as free tech. The GLibrary in 40turns and a few pics of the overall situation.

Attachment: 1000bc1.jpg
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Last edited by Mountain Sage on 17-05-2004 at 14:40

	17-05-2004 14:24									#281
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My economy in 100BC:

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	17-05-2004 14:26									#282
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And the overall score. Still not Nr. 1....

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	17-05-2004 14:27									#283
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150BC: a great leap forward. With the GLibray and my contacts I got all the Ancient Times techs except Construction and Currency. The Republic in 11 turns, 1993 gold + 45/turn. Cina and the Celts – Literature, but the Celts and the Zulus were at war, which should set back their research.

210AD: one of the most important decisions. The (dis-)placement of the Palace and FP.
The tech race: Celts and Arabia (+Literature and the Republic), Aztec, Inca, Egypt and Maya hopeless, China + the Republic.2669 gold (-14/turn), Currency in 8 turns.

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Last edited by Mountain Sage on 17-05-2004 at 14:41

	17-05-2004 14:29									#284
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Slowly catching up...

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	17-05-2004 14:32									#285
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300AD: the Middle Ages. Feudalism in 28 turns at -1/turn.
500AD: Engineering in 1 turn, Sun Tsu pre-built ready. The Celts have already Feudalism, China at parity.

850AD: Sun Tsu in the pocket, Leo in 4 turns. Celts + Education, - Invention and Gunpowder. China + Chivalry – Engineering, Invention and Gunpowder.
In order to keep my advance in seafaring and scientific techs, I decided to build Copernicus’ Observatory and Magellan’s Voyage. Since I went for the lower branch, I traded Engineering for Theology with the Celts and researched Education for myself (owning the GLibrary!).
Still improving...

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	17-05-2004 14:33									#286
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1500AD: another great leap another age. 5531 gold +46/turn, Industrialization in 14 turns. Celts – Economics, Physics, Metallurgy, + Music Theory (!), Arabia - Banking and Chemistry, China - Banking, Astronomy, Metallurgy.
Magellan’s , Newton, Smith, Copernicus’s (and Knights Templar and the Statue of Zeus, of course) in the pocket.
The total score…. Almost there…
The rest of the game is routine...

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Last edited by Mountain Sage on 17-05-2004 at 14:45

	17-05-2004 14:35									#287
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1814AD: got ToE, Hoover Dam and Universal Suffrage. Replaceable Parts in 11 turns. Celts – Steam Power and Medicine, China and Arabia still in the Middle Ages.
the game ended in 1984, but nothing importante happened until then...

My economics:

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	17-05-2004 14:35									#288
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The overall score...

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	17-05-2004 14:37									#289
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The greatest joke of the game... that adviser will be in deep trouble...

If you need any more info, just et me know and I will give you still more details...

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	17-05-2004 14:37									#290
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The greatest joke of the game... that adviser will be in deep trouble...

If you need any more info, just et me know and I will give you still more details...

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	18-05-2004 06:00									#291
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Thanks for the report MS. All in all a great looking game. Some tests I've conducted make me feel that even with a large army I could have kept up with or surpassed the AI if I had been in a more productive government. Communist with SPHQ was by far the best with Democracy a two turn longer research time runner up.

	31-05-2004 14:51									#292
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just making my first attempt at SID atm.

i'll post up some images tonight.

anyway im playing Large archipeloe. i picked the reliable ould dutch. i followed sages advice and i choose my opponents and reduced it by 2.
my opponents are egypt, america, hittites, russia, mongols, arabs, babylon, celts and one other.

i was gunna play using sages save but i just wasnt comfortable playing with spain. the religious trait imo is a waste at this level cause i intend on 1 goverment change from depotism to republic. plus swiss mercs are just to good to resist.

i selected my map very carefully. my home island had 3 different luxuries and plenty space. thankfully the less number of opponents worked becuase comparing my island to others its clear that its sized so that 2 civs should be starting in it.

however i've brrn unlucky with the resources, no horses or iron on my island. but i was extreamly lucky. i managed to get a settler onto an uninhabitated island half way cross the world. the city has both Iron and horses in its radius. it was an ocean crossing of 7 turns with an 1 tile island on the way. i was unbelieveably lucky with the first 2 galleys (1st one to scout it, 2nd deliever settler.) cause susequentally i never managaed to get any more galleys to make it (i tried about 6 more attempts). as a result i now share this island with 2 citys from the biggest AI.

its only now (circa 600 AD) that ive gotten navigation so its only now that i can use iron and horses in my home island. up to that i had military force of around 5 spearmen and a trechubet. am going to start to build an invasion force to take out my backward neighbour, Arabia.

ive struggled to keep somewhat in touch with the AI as reagrding reasearch. im atleast half an age behind them.
their is 3 AIS who are ahead of me (in every way id imagine) and the rest are all behind me technologically. its only from tech treading and tech stealing that im getting advances. ive 0% reasearch and 1 scientist.
but due to my nonexistant military and not building librarys/unis im getting circa 350 gpt from taxation (90%)
this allows me to steal fairly regularly.

the three top AIS are all embroiled in a bitter war. im hoping that their militarys will grow too big for their economys to handle (which has happend most of the other civs). iv no idea how i'll actually win, diplomatic and cultral are turned off. so its either domination or space race. im slightly optomistic.

i'll post the images when i get home.

for all those peeps who read this and think wow. i was a monarchy only player untill a number of months ago. once a civ player is willing to forgo previous assumptions about how to play the game anything is posisble. (eg no military force is unnerving, any kind of attack and its time machine time, where buy i'll go back 30/40 turns and adjust my strategy), (im calling this Precognition, tis a nicer term ).

	31-05-2004 22:44									#293
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Good thing you turned off culture with the Babylon in the game.

I like to go to monarchy so I can have a large army. It lets me take out at least 1 or 2 civs. This gives me enough land to stave off any run away KAI from getting a domination win.

It also allows me to stop a culture win. I feel having it on is important to a sid run as that is the easiest way to lose.

	31-05-2004 23:57									#294
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ok got the images and a couple of saves.

but i put the images on myown webspace caused i couldnt be arsed resizing them and i hate the way these images take up so much space on the thread.

my island
http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene...v/hereshome.jpg

my resource island ive enlarged the minimap with this image. remember i got to here going west.
http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene...ourceIsland.JPG

heres my sicence dude telling me im great when i know im not
http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene...rScienceman.JPG

now some victory screens
http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene...Victorystat.JPG

http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene.../scoreGraph.JPG

http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene.../PowerGraph.JPG

the demographics
http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene...emographics.JPG


heres 2 saves, beginning
http://www.icc-comp.net/images/gene...c_Dutch_Sid.SAV

and current
http://www.icc-comp.net/images/general/Civ/Current.SAV

also a couple of corrections.
i dont have cultural victory turned off. personally im burying my head in the sand as regards this. im hoping that the 3 biggest civs will not eliminate eachother so they will prevent a cultral win for meh. (atm civ no1 is warring with 2+3)

also barbarians are set to none.

im in republic atm, will prob stay there cause gold is the only thing keeping me in the game atm.
if i dont win this time im definately going to try the map again. all the Civs to my west are BIG, but to the East is CIVS which just didnt cut it. im hoping that i can relieve these civs of their land, especially as i will have tech advantage in regards them.

	01-06-2004 00:46									#295
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With that map you may be able to get by with the top civs stopping each other from a double your culture win. This can be tricky as often a KAI will over run the other AI's.

You still have to worry about a 20K city, if one puts a lot of wonders in the same city.

If space is on, you may be able to beat it with that one. It is tricky as you need a city that has about twice the production of the best AI city.

I did it by the AI not going for the last part right away. It build a manufactoring plant instead and I build the last part.
We both could do it in the same number of turns.

I don't see much in the way of great land for your empire. If you could annex a few of the smaller civs, that would be good.

Too me you do not have enough land to ensure having all the required resources. You must have coal and iron to get those rails up to allow defending.

You will need bombers down the road to handle the massive ship bombardments that the AI is so fond of. Then they will send out carriers with bombers. These can make life very harsh, if you are not big enough to force them to stay in line.

Good luck.

	01-06-2004 14:18									#296
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thanks vmxa1.

yea, i'm counting on the 3 top AIs slugging it out (they have been at war for atleast a few hundred years)

it looks like the no1 civ (hittites) are losing out to #3 (russia) on the land war. hittites are the big wonder producers so far, and are way ahead of anyone in culture, but they are losing some outer cities.

im not sure on 20K culture city, tis too early for meh to worry about this. untill i get an army in the field i can do nothing about this.

although i had another hammer blow last night.
no saltpeter on my island. in fact i checked out all the land i could see and only found 2 sources of saltpeter! (hittites and russia have it) so far ive had neither IRON, HORSES or SALTPETER within easy access. thats pretty poor placement, but i'll keep going and wait and see what COAL is like.

ive also lost my horses supply, hittites took it in a peacefully when they annexed that square due to culture growth. but horse are selling for price of a lux on the open market, so im not screwed on this fronyt.

will have to invade weaker civs with knights, trechubets and swiss mercs. im guuna raze all aquired citys and repopulate with settlers. Arabia is in my target sights, theyve no lux or reasources but they stand in the way oif MY GLOBAL DOMINANCE .
im thinking that effeciancy in city placement to optimise and ensure that i get as many size 6 towns as posisble to ensure i have minimum support costs.

on the positive side, i have real good shot at building admans smiths GW, i only need to steal economics to build it, and ive a city with a 420 shields into a palace build (adams smith is 600) with only one hittite city building it and that city has produces 7 sheilds per turn, and they have 35 turns to go and i can build it in around 15 turns.
that would reduce my maintence costs (around 100 atm) alot cause the only buildings ive built so far are
markets, banks, grainaries, aqaducts and harbours and courthouses. im earning ~450gpt on 100% tax. doing all my stealing on careful or safely.

im considering building a fleet of priveteers (10 or so) and just sending them against the big AIs to bombard their coasts. not sure how this would effect my relationships with the AIs. i know they know who the owner of a pirate is and i CANT afford to be attacked by the BIG AIs.

	01-06-2004 19:04									#297
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Welcome to Sid Mr. Justice. You’ll want to be careful to cover your invasion forces with armies so that you can wear down the AI military with attacks by trebs/cannon and knights/cavalry. I had a stack of Swiss mercs in a city which defended well against a huge AI assault and I went from zero war weariness (WW) to total WW in one turn as a Republic. Each time a defender is attacked your WW increases so it doesn’t take long when the AI attacks with hundreds of units. I really think Monarchy/Communism is the way to go on Sid if you’re going to do much fighting. If you’re going to play builder you might consider aggressive pillaging to slow your opponents down. Caravels can get three unit armies and explorers to enemy lands and you’ll have a fair bit of time to pillage before WW sets in. Good luck.

	01-06-2004 19:17									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Mr Justice i know they know who the owner of a pirate is and i CANT afford to be attacked by the BIG AIs.

I haven’t much use for privateers because they’re so weak, but I wouldn’t worry about being attacked by the AI. They tend to drop off a few units at a time in the same place turn after turn and so you can set these up to be leader factories with a few trebs and knights. These battles will give you the armies you need to cover your real invasion later.

	01-06-2004 19:29									#299
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Resources are the main reason you have to aquire lots of land in C3C.

I never tried republic at Sid, it just does not seem to make sense. I get to monarchy and stay there. If you can boost towns to cities, you get more support.

	01-06-2004 20:57									#300
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I agree that Monarchy is the best Sid Government coming out of Despotism but have you tried the switch to Communism Vmxa? I think it's worthwhile if you can get the tech early without jeopardizing your ToE bid. I did a late game comparison after my first win and Communism just about halved my research time from Monarchy and even outperformed Democracy with the SPHQ and a large empire.