11-04-2004 05:29									#301
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Intending and then doing so. Don't play smart with me little boy.

Let me see... the conversation went like this:

Ted Striker: Iraq is a special case. Bush was going to invade Iraq no matter what when he came into office.

Agathon: And for that he should be tried as a war criminal.

Thus, you wanted him tried because he was going in no matter what, not because he was going in.

	11-04-2004 05:31									#302
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I think one of the charges brought against the defendants of of the Nuremberg trials was 'conspiracy to wage aggresive war.' Not that I think that Bush will ever face a trial.

Your point?

Should Clinton be tried for war crimes, because of Kosovo?

Should Bush I be tried for war crimes, because of the first Gulf War?

Should Bush II be tried for war crimes because of Afghanistan?

	11-04-2004 05:42									#303
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I was merely pointing out that technically "conspiracy" to wage war is a crime. Not "intention" to wage war.

	11-04-2004 05:46									#304
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Let me see... the conversation went like this: Ted Striker: Iraq is a special case. Bush was going to invade Iraq no matter what when he came into office. Agathon: And for that he should be tried as a war criminal. Thus, you wanted him tried because he was going in no matter what, not because he was going in.

Rubbish. You assume that I didn't mean the obvious - that he went to war. But that is so obvious that I didn't think I needed to point it out.

	11-04-2004 06:02									#305
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Whatever. My other question still stands - how the hell is invading Iraq a crime?

	11-04-2004 06:18									#306
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Whatever. My other question still stands - how the hell is invading Iraq a crime?

John Pilger explains it all here.

	11-04-2004 06:20									#307
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The first two paragraphs completely destroy the article. Specifically:

quote: And yet these proven lies are still dominant in Australia. Day after day, their perpetrators seek to obfuscate and justify an unprovoked, illegal attack that killed up to 55,000 people, including at least 10,000 civilians; that every month causes the death and injury of 1000 children from exploding cluster bombs; that has so saturated Iraqi towns and cities with uranium that American and British soldiers are warned not to go where Iraqi children play, for fear of contamination.

Complete bullshit.

	11-04-2004 06:38									#308
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Whatever. My other question still stands - how the hell is invading Iraq a crime?

Aggressive wars violate the UN charter, which the US is party to.

	11-04-2004 06:40									#309
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Considering the number of violations of that prohibition without major consequences, I question if that still holds true.

	11-04-2004 06:43									#310
	Tired of ads?

Really, did the words on the charter somehow change? Saddam Hussein was dealt with according to that charter.

And if you look at international borders since 1945 you will see that they have hardly changed. Indeed the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the Indonesian occupation of East Timor leap to the mind, but the international community has never regarded those as legitimate.

I forgot Tibet.

	11-04-2004 06:46									#311
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Really, did the words on the charter somehow change?

International law only holds as long as people are willing to enforce it. If that doesn't happen, I don't see how you can argue that states should feel bound by it.

	11-04-2004 06:57									#312
	Got spare money?

quote: We now know that the British military command virtually refused to send troops to Iraq until Blair gave them a guarantee they would not be prosecuted by the International Criminal Court. Blair's guarantee was worthless. And that frightens the British establishment, and the Australian establishment, too.

The Truth according to John Pilger

Now why would the proud British military establishment beg for the protection from their political masters in this case? If this is true then the morale among the US' most strong allies, Britain and Australia is low, even among the officers.

But the responsibility for the conspiracy to wage war rests entirely with the politicians.

	11-04-2004 06:57									#313
	Inflate your Upload Space

The usual excuse of people like you: might is right.

The truth is that there is no alternative. The world looked into the abyss after the end of WW2 and realised that the only alternative was international institutions. Sure, they aren't perfect but it is better than a Hobbesian state of nature between states.

Americans don't realize this because, unlike the other powers, they never suffered the devastation of war on home soil, against civilians.

In fact, despite appearances, things are getting better for the UN. There are more democracies now than there ever were before which has marginalised totalitarian states to a greater degree than ever before. If a state, no matter how powerful, attempts to go it alone it will be brought to heel by the rest of the world since no state can defy the rest of the world at an acceptable cost to itself - especially the US which simply does not have the collective will to suffer the high taxes and casualties that doing so would cost it.

	11-04-2004 07:00									#314
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Aggressive wars violate the UN charter, which the US is party to.

So of course Clinton should be tried for war crimes as well - look at Kosovo.

	11-04-2004 07:03									#315
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yes, but the UN was smart about Kosovo. They basically agreed to look the other way because the Russians didn't want to be seen attacking a Serbian leader (not that they didn't want him removed). In fact it was a triumph for Clintonian diplomacy and for the UN.

	11-04-2004 07:06									#316
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich So of course Clinton should be tried for war crimes as well - look at Kosovo.

Kosovo was not UN sanctioned? Or was it only NATO sanctioned? I forget.

	11-04-2004 07:07									#317
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You know, this is what it must have been like before Watergate really hit big. Some people were defending Nixon with all they had and refusing to see the basic fact that he was a crook.

When the reckoning comes this time what will you say?

	11-04-2004 07:22									#318
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Actually the US is not a signatory to the International Criminal Court, so there is no legal basis for charging US soldiers. But they are not responsible anyway. According to Nuremberg standards they cannot be held responsible on conspiracy charges.

The US politicians have deliberately misled their own people, and it is the people of the US who, if they have the will, must see this thing through.

All indications points towards the fact that the US was never even interested in a stable Iraq. All plans, which had been worked on for years, were discarded by Rumsfeld. Why?

The number of troops and equipment sent to Iraq was deliberately downscaled. Thus endangering the lives of US servicemen needlessly.

New evidence indicates that Iraqi security has largely been put into the hands of foreign mercenaries. Only 2.000 Iraqi police have been trained for the job. The rest have no police education. The mercenaries have now banded together in a 30.000 man strong army.

If stability was thus so criminally neglected, then one is forced to believe that the occupation served nefarious ends.

But most exasperating is the fact, that the US and Europe will have to deal with probably many more terrorist attacks in the future. This because of this needless affront to the Arabs.

	11-04-2004 07:25									#319
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yes, but the UN was smart about Kosovo. They basically agreed to look the other way because the Russians didn't want to be seen attacking a Serbian leader (not that they didn't want him removed). In fact it was a triumph for Clintonian diplomacy and for the UN.

But it was still illegal... Clinton should be tried as a war criminal!

	11-04-2004 07:29									#320
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich But it was still illegal... Clinton should be tried as a war criminal!

Why not? He was already tried as an adulterer.

	11-04-2004 07:30									#321
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich But it was still illegal... Clinton should be tried as a war criminal!

A court would have a hard time making that case.

Anyway, the Republicans have shot themselves in the foot. They went after Clinton mercilessly for the "crime" of screwing a dumb, fat girl.

Bush has real skeletons in his closet.

	11-04-2004 07:35									#322
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It was not the fact that clinton had sex that he was charged, it was because he lied about the fact that he had sex that he was charged. Although I don' get how he was forced to lie in the first place, since having sex is not a crime.

	11-04-2004 07:38									#323
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Agathon A court would have a hard time making that case.

How? It wasn't UN-sanctioned. It's CLEARLY illegal by your definition.

	11-04-2004 07:39									#324
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc It was not the fact that clinton had sex that he was charged, it was because he lied about the fact that he had sex that he was charged. Although I don' get how he was forced to lie in the first place, since having sex is not a crime.

They started asking questions about it (in some questioning thingy where he'd swore an oath). It was an inappropriate line of questioning, but by answering he made it appropriate (he could have refused to answer and that would be that).

	11-04-2004 07:42									#325
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich How? It wasn't UN-sanctioned. It's CLEARLY illegal by your definition.

Despite what you think, the law is not that much of an ass. Clinton could have made an overwhelming case that he was acting in support of the other pillar of the UN - the Declaration of Human Rights. These are somewhat contradictory to each other, so a case could definitely be mounted.

Bush could make no such case, since his justification for the war has collapsed and he has clearly indicated that the security policy of his country is in violation of the charter.

	11-04-2004 09:33									#326
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Agathon A court would have a hard time making that case.

Not really.
1) It wasn't sanctioned by the UNSC.
2) The State in question wasn't threatening its neighbors.
3) The action violated the sovereign equality of nations, the very basis of international law which you claim to hold dear.
4) The UN Charter prohibits enforcement action regional agencies without the authorization of the U.N. Security Council. This is of particular importance when one considers your arguement of Clinton pointing to the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

	11-04-2004 09:34									#327
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Haven't you noticed that the Charter contradicts the DOHR?

He would never be convicted. The UN clearly approved of the action although some members did not want to be seen to. It would never stand up in court.

	11-04-2004 09:40									#328
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Agathon The usual excuse of people like you: might is right.

Given the current, past, & probable future state of anarchy that exists in the system of nation-states, self-enforcement is the only way things get done. If the states don't care to enforce a law, it ceases to have any meaning.

	11-04-2004 09:41									#329
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Haven't you noticed that the Charter contradicts the DOHR?

Haven't you noticed that the DOHR lacks the force of law?

	11-04-2004 11:05									#330
	Inflate your Upload Space

In addition to the westerners and Japanese, apparently these morons have also kidnapped two foreign aid workers who are also Arabs.

What a bunch of morons.