08-04-2004 23:52									#241
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The only credentials needed is the power of a gun-the Grand Ayatollah in Iran (whose name I always forget) was a mid-level cleric far behind many higher and more senior clerics, but Khomeini tapped him for leadership after his original successor designate Montezari became a critic.

As I have said twice before, the worse part about what just happened is the complete lack of action by the Iraqi police-they just melted away....way to go!

	08-04-2004 23:55									#242
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The only credentials needed is the power of a gun-

Hence his forming a militia loyal to him in order to leap frog the pecking order established in Shiite law.

	08-04-2004 23:56									#243
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And getting his name out as "that guy up in Fallulah who stood up to the Americans!" (for a day or two anyway)

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 23:57									#244
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He is not in Fallujah. He is a Najaf now.Was in Kuffa before.

F-for Sunni, K of N for Shiite

	08-04-2004 23:59									#245
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Oh, sorry, mixed up my Iraqi cities there.

-Arrian

	09-04-2004 00:05									#246
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quote: Originally posted by GePap the Grand Ayatollah in Iran (whose name I always forget)

You'd be thinking of Khamenei.

	09-04-2004 00:40									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Supporter of War and Supporter of Occupation is the same thing.

No, it isn't. A supporter of the war is someone who thought we should invade and overthrow their government. A supporter of the occupation is someone who sees remaining as the best policy, after we've already gone in. All of the supporters of the war are supporters of the occupation (excpet possibly a few nutcases) but many who were detractors of the war are also supporters of the occupation - the war is over and done with, and we have to make decisions about the here and now, not the past.

	09-04-2004 00:46									#248
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TMV rearranges MTG's sentences...

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Of course, one could consider the Hussein government's actions in Kurdish and Shiite parts of Iraq... as ... what happens when combatants hide among civilians. but I don't want to interject a little reality and detract from the point you're trying to make.

	09-04-2004 01:04									#249
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Viking -- I am the only one that has the patent for misquoting others.

	09-04-2004 01:23									#250
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking TMV rearranges MTG's sentences...

Weren't you the one whining about lotm "misquoting" you? Oh and UR do your job!

	09-04-2004 02:14									#251
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The only credentials needed is the power of a gun-the Grand Ayatollah in Iran (whose name I always forget) was a mid-level cleric far behind many higher and more senior clerics, but Khomeini tapped him for leadership after his original successor designate Montezari became a critic. As I have said twice before, the worse part about what just happened is the complete lack of action by the Iraqi police-they just melted away....way to go!

IIRC, Khamanei is not a grand ayatollah, as there are only four. He was also one of, if not the, chief prosecutors for the revolutionary tribunals under Khomeini, and his zealotry in that position brought him a lot of notice.

	09-04-2004 02:18									#252
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quote: All you guys who seem to think the US is engaged in killing at any cost haven't seen US forces engage an enemy to our full capability.

Well Michael, you could always nuke the Kaba. That would show those terrorists who is boss! But it is a sure way to win the battle and lose the war...

Trolling apart, I disagree with your theory on how to pacify the guerilla. For every enemy soldier you kill, at least two more will emerge. It is like a hydra, and you could never win. You could have an outstanding kill/loss ratio, but your own losses will still happen and will eventually make a majority of the American public turn against the war. Time will tell who is correct.

	09-04-2004 02:21									#253
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking TMV rearranges MTG's sentences...

You can rearrance the sentences, but not the reality. Kurdish and Shiite combatants arose after years of terror, murder, and continuous secret police activity on the part of the Hussein regime, and the regime's military responses to resistance were designed to inflict civilian casualties.

Come back and talk to me if the US kills tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians in Fallujah and ar Ramadi.

	09-04-2004 02:22									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Well Michael, you could always nuke the Kaba. That would show those terrorists who is boss! But it is a sure way to win the battle and lose the war...

Actually, if we killed them all, by definition, we would have won the war.

	09-04-2004 02:24									#255
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Start the ****, lose control of it, then play peacemaker. At least this ******* has style and a sense of humor.

It was the CIA and MOSSAD, or VULCAN*, who started the f*cking sh*t. They let those mercs in Falluja be ambushed by having Mossad agents set them up. They banned the newspaper. They arrested the aide, and did not tell the Spanish what was going on. They sent out an arrest for al Sadr, despite the fact that it was initially the Bat'ahists who the CPA claimed responsible. They possibly tried to provoke civil war between the Shi'a and Sunni by having agents bomb and assasininating. They were probably behind the letter that called for a Ba'athist or Al-Qaeda initiated civil war between Shi'a and Sunni.

THEY, however don't think that people can think for themselves and put 2 and 2 together.

*VULCAN is the provisonal military government set up in the US after the attacks against the WTC.

	09-04-2004 02:24									#256
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat --- Come back and talk to me if the US kills tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians in Fallujah and ar Ramadi.

With 3-400 in less than a week, you're making good progress

	09-04-2004 02:26									#257
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I want my exclusive patent rights to misquote others restored.

	09-04-2004 02:26									#258
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* DinoDoc patiently waits for UR

	09-04-2004 02:27									#259
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Actually, if we killed them all, by definition, we would have won the war.

The surviving mutants will glow in the dark and come at us like infested Terrans (if you ever played Starcraft)

	09-04-2004 02:27									#260
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I usually killed them before they got close to my base.

	09-04-2004 02:28									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Well Michael, you could always nuke the Kaba. That would show those terrorists who is boss! But it is a sure way to win the battle and lose the war...

quote: Trolling apart, I disagree with your theory on how to pacify the guerilla. For every enemy soldier you kill, at least two more will emerge. It is like a hydra, and you could never win. You could have an outstanding kill/loss ratio, but your own losses will still happen and will eventually make a majority of the American public turn against the war. Time will tell who is correct.

It depends on the circumstances - in Iraq, (unlike that country that's name begins with a "V"), you don't have a prominent leader with charisma and decades of resistance to foreign occupiers, and a generally unified opposition. You also don't have ostensibly neutral major powers providing a huge amount of materiel and political support to such an organization.

Instead, you have a lot of little groups with distinct and often fundamentally incompatible agendas (Baathists vs. Shiite fundies vs. al Qaeda doesn't even scratch the surface) and all of these groups are looking at their own short-term positions vis-a-vis each other and their potential role in any future power vacuum.

	09-04-2004 02:30									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie With 3-400 in less than a week, you're making good progress

That'd take us six months to do what even the Hussein regime managed to do in the span of a week. Besides, the Iraqi insurgents don't have what it takes (on so many levels...) to engage in sustained operations in a well defined area for anything near six months.

	09-04-2004 02:41									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc It was the CIA and MOSSAD, or VULCAN*, who started the f*cking sh*t. They let those mercs in Falluja be ambushed by having Mossad agents set them up. They banned the newspaper. They arrested the aide, and did not tell the Spanish what was going on. They sent out an arrest for al Sadr, despite the fact that it was initially the Bat'ahists who the CPA claimed responsible. They possibly tried to provoke civil war between the Shi'a and Sunni by having agents bomb and assasininating. They were probably behind the letter that called for a Ba'athist or Al-Qaeda initiated civil war between Shi'a and Sunni. THEY, however don't think that people can think for themselves and put 2 and 2 together. *VULCAN is the provisonal military government set up in the US after the attacks against the WTC.

What exactly would CIA and Mossad get out of creating a civil war?

	09-04-2004 02:42									#264
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Damn you! Why did you ask? Now he'll answer!

	09-04-2004 02:43									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich ...many who were detractors of the war are also supporters of the occupation - the war is over and done with, and we have to make decisions about the here and now, not the past.

The war has just begun in my oppinion. The 'war' initially was not really a war but a sports broadcast by embedded journalist to give Fox-vievers and Rupert Murdoch a hard-on.

The idea that the occupation is in the best interest of the Iraqi people is preposterous. People have been brainwashed by the idea that if the 'coaliation' left then it would be civil war. Sorry to say so but 'hum-int' in the Western World seems to have reached a low point in this affair. Sunnis and Shi'as are working together.

This case is only compareable to the case made for the Kosovo - Albanians being the 'good guys' of the Kosovo War.

I say, that people should think for themselves and see what is at the end of the fork.

	09-04-2004 02:47									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes What exactly would CIA and Mossad get out of creating a civil war?

Divide and conquer. If the Shi'as and the Sunnis were provoked to fight eachother then the call for a STRONG US backed government would be politically accepted by everyone.

Sad to say so, but the Sunnis and Shi'as dry gulched the entire system.

	09-04-2004 02:50									#267
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Michael, you also have some charismatic Ayatollas, at least one legal AK-47 per household and 1000's of hidden weapon depots filled with mortar shells and RPGs all over Iraq. Add some hatred against foreigners in general and Americans in particular plus the fact that lots of them have absolutely nothing left to lose and will happily sacrifice their life to kick you out. They don't need any outside help to hurt US hard enough to make the American public ask for a withdrawal.

This war is not about who has the greatest military capability, it's about who has the ability to suffer casualties. And America is very weak in that game. USSR gave up in Afghanistan after ten years of about five KIA per day. I don't think US will be that patient.

	09-04-2004 03:49									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Divide and conquer. If the Shi'as and the Sunnis were provoked to fight eachother then the call for a STRONG US backed government would be politically accepted by everyone. Sad to say so, but the Sunnis and Shi'as dry gulched the entire system.

Not necessarily, the century is still young. They'll have all the rest of their lives to kill each other.

	09-04-2004 04:02									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Not necessarily, the century is still young. They'll have all the rest of their lives to kill each other.

But I doubt the US would give Sig-Int to anyone, nor Weapons of Mass Destruction.

	09-04-2004 04:35									#270
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The Russians,Chinese and French are there to pick up the slack Tripledoc.