07-04-2004 21:04									#151
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Strangely enough one thing which a force such as the US/UK force in Iraq can do to help pacify an area is to offer a target to groups which would otherwise target each other.

I saw this working when I was a boy in Cyprus. The Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots had long standing problems getting on with each other but for a considerable while the young men of the two communities who enjoyed making this a reason to indulge in violence would take pot shots at British, and later UN, troops rather than at each other.

This kept the temperature down a bit and even allowed a certain amount of desultory conversation to go on between the principals. Although sadly that came to naught and the two communities finished up segregating themselves.

Anyway professional soldiers are quite good at ducking so for them to be the target can turn out generally better than for bitterly opposed factions to go at it directly against each other.

But there is a bit of a knack to being a good piggy in the middle. I suppose it requires a good deal of professionalism and self confidence to avoid making macho responses. Which may be a bit tricky for a teenaged sort of country like the USA to pull off.

	07-04-2004 21:20									#152
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Oooh, nice troll at the end there.

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 21:21									#153
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Not really... too obvious.

	07-04-2004 21:22									#154
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Oh, sorry, forgot to indicate my sarcasm via the clever use of a smilie.

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 21:27									#155
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It's a serious transgression, but I'll let you go with a slap on the wrist this time.

But NEXT time

	07-04-2004 21:37									#156
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'Armed insurgents are not going to be given carte blanche sanctuary to operate from within mosques with impunity, and if the Iraqi religious leaders and Iraqi people don't like it, they should consider coming up with some means to prevent misuse of mosques as fighting positions, staging and supply areas for combatant forces. Or they should consider that if they fail to come up with a way to address the problem, they may not like the results.

'

have to agree with MtG on this. I really don't think the US would target a hospital. They should stage and hold-up somewhere like that. Even still, I see nothing wrong with targeting a hospital... if you give people 10-15 minutes to leave. The US needs to come down very hard on a city or two. Make an example for the rest. However, it looks like it might be a little too late for example making. I'm kinda surpirsed it took this long for this kinda thing to start up.

	07-04-2004 22:14									#157
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No I don't care if you have armed insurgents in a mosque - you just don't bomb it in a country like Iraq!

Sure you may kill a bunched of insurgents - but how many MORE are going to sign up just because of this!!?

This is sheer stupidity on a grand scale and the US has played into the insurgents hands!

The area should have been locked down and cordoned off and handed over to Iraqi security troops with US supervision. Religious leaders of the mosque could have helped in getting the men inside to surrender - or deal with it Iraqi to Iraqi...

But no, let's do Overkill US stylee...

BIG F*CKING MISTAKE!

You guys don't get it, the more brutal you are - the more resistance you are going to get! It is that simple!

But then again, this whole mission is just a revenge attack anyway cos a bunch of mercs got toasted...

US bombards Iraq mosque complex

	07-04-2004 23:19									#158
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'You guys don't get it, the more brutal you are - the more resistance you are going to get! It is that simple!
'

disagree - look, the US did not go in and destroy cities (russians) and kill just because you don't wear a US flag. We tried to restore utility services. We tried to restore order. this is how some respond. The resistance will be there no matter what course we take. carpet bomb and take the oil i say. sure, it's bloody and harsh. but in the end the results will be the same. do it now or fight it out everyday for years to come.

	07-04-2004 23:20									#159
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IS there any evidence that there were insurgents inside the mosque? The US policy, since someone set up the four mercs to be killed (how did the insurgenst know they were there at exactly that time, and what were they doing there, and who is the fourth merc?), has been one of continued escalation.

Then the newspaper was closed, a paper which had used violent language but not called for violence, then the aide was arrested, but the Spanish were not told, leading them to deny his dentention, and then it exploded. And this at a time when the number of combat troops in Iraq was artificially high due to rotation.

This whole incedent has been finely tuned to take place at this exact time. The bombing of the Mosque is futher escalation, and it should be seen as part of the overall plan.

	07-04-2004 23:29									#160
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The mosque building was not hit-the mosque compound was hit. HOw much this difference will matter perception wise in Iraq, we will see.

	07-04-2004 23:42									#161
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quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV The resistance will be there no matter what course we take. carpet bomb and take the oil i say. sure, it's bloody and harsh. but in the end the results will be the same. do it now or fight it out everyday for years to come.

But then the Bushites will lose their "we were trying to liberate the oi...people, the people!" argument

	07-04-2004 23:45									#162
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The US military can not terrorize the population becuase, as the dancing cow said, the rationale for the war, now that no threat has been found, is that we are there to liberate Iraqis-under this line of argument, the vast mayority of Iraqis approve and support the US and it's actions. Thus, to strike against the population is to attack this rationale-an undermine the whole point of the Bush war.

	07-04-2004 23:46									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc This whole incedent has been finely tuned to take place at this exact time. The bombing of the Mosque is futher escalation, and it should be seen as part of the overall plan.

am i the only one who thinks trippledoc's tin foil hat needs a slight adjustment?

	08-04-2004 00:14									#164
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The US military can not terrorize the population becuase...

...that is the final excuse the US could use for kicking Saddam out...

And when the liberator becomes the oppressor you've gone full circle!

	08-04-2004 00:39									#165
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Mobius, as usual, you see what you are inclined to see. This is true of all of us, myself included. But, IMO, you're one of the absolute worst here at the 'poly OTF for taking a preconceived notion, applying it to a situation, and getting exactly your preconceived notion right back out, with some vitriolic condemnation of the US thrown in for spice. If you're trying to troll, well, I've been dense, and have been reeled in, but I don't actually think that is your intent.

Personally, I feel a "strong military response" to the death of the contractor/security guards/mercs (doesn't matter to me what the hell you call 'em) is likely to be counterproductive. In that I sense we agree. But we will have to watch as this plays itself out. Thankfully, not only do we have the internet for a variety of news sources, but also a 'poly regular on the ground in Iraq, giving us relatively frequent updates (and hopefully keeping his head down!).

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 01:48									#166
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I was just wondering.. Would the US have pulled off the same kind of response if the mutilated bodies were not of American contractors, but rather like South Africans or something?

	08-04-2004 01:50									#167
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quote: I was just wondering.. Would the US have pulled off the same kind of response if the mutilated bodies were not of American contractors, but rather like South Africans or something?

I'm guessing yes. We (at least the public) didn't know that they were American contractors until a day or two after the event. By then, the challenge to US authority did not appear to rest on the nationality of the contractors.

It appears that the American military and public have learned a lot from Mogadishu.

	08-04-2004 01:51									#168
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So you're giving me **** and agreeing with me at the same time...

Edit: Reply to Arrian

	08-04-2004 01:54									#169
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Yeah Arrian, that is funny.

	08-04-2004 01:58									#170
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I'm guessing yes. We (at least the public) didn't know that they were American contractors until a day or two after the event. By then, the challenge to US authority did not appear to rest on the nationality of the contractors. It appears that the American military and public have learned a lot from Mogadishu.

No. The fact they were Americans was a HUGE part of the emotional response in the US. If they had been from another country, or say, Iraqi police, no, the US public would not have cared. The Occupation authorities would have to react strongly whatever nationality they were, but the response would still not have been as large.

	08-04-2004 02:07									#171
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quote: The fact they were Americans was a HUGE part of the emotional response in the US.

Well, I must not have been talking to the people you were, because that is not my perception.

But anyway, if they were Iraqi, I agree that Americans would not have cared very much. Maybe a little shocked. On the other hand, they probably would have cared a lot if 4 South Africans were killed and their bodies mutilated. Of course, there's a context here.

	08-04-2004 02:33									#172
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If they were not Americans, the stream of "relatives mourn, relatives remember" stories would not have abounded. People would have been schoked specifically if they were western foreigners, but if not Americans, it would not get the same reaction from the US-just as the death of non-American servicemembers of the coalition forces don;t get the same response as dead G.I.s.

	08-04-2004 02:41									#173
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Possible. I don't deal in certainties like you do.

	08-04-2004 02:43									#174
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Possible. I don't deal in certainties like you do.

yes you do..right there was one.

	08-04-2004 02:58									#175
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I just read that they're sending a Kurdish special forces group into Fallujah. What a great idea! Next they should send in some southern Shiites.

Since suicide bombers have been disrupting the training of Iraqi police and army I wonder if the allies have considered moving the training bases to safer countries like Kuwait?

	08-04-2004 03:20									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Since suicide bombers have been disrupting the training of Iraqi police and army I wonder if the allies have considered moving the training bases to safer countries like Kuwait?

When Sen. Byrd says the following.

"$121 billion later [total occupation cost], and just 2,324 of the 78,224 Iraqi police are "fully qualified," according to the Pentagon. Nearly 60,000 of those same police officers have had no formal training -- none!"

Then I would say that there are entirely different reasons behind the lack of security in Iraq.

More disturbing is that Rumsfeld seems to believe that there are somewhere around 200.000 Iraqi police and armymen in Iraq, working for the CPA.

	08-04-2004 03:40									#177
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On the issue of the importance of victims nationality:
A while back there was some resentment against the swedish prime minister for not attending the cermony to mourn the victims of the Madrid bombings. He was out shopping a new house and sent the deputy minister of finance instead (a loser).* Now, the Rwandian govt had a simular cermony for the ten year anniversary for the genocide of perhaps a million africans. That cermony didn't include scores of european heads of state did it?

On the other hand, whose so naive that they think that humans anywhere on the globe are equals? Everyone's equal but some are perhaps more equal than others. Sorry for taking up your time.


* Apparantly, the meeting was important according to a spanish minister -commenting on the swedish prime ministers abscence- important for building up a european identity. Always nice with people that use the death of others for political gains or goals.

	08-04-2004 05:22									#178
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One of the main porblems that have surfaced is that the Iraqi security forces are doing nothing anywhere to calm this-the operation in fallujah is alwayssold as Marines and Iraqi security forces-but I don;t ever here about the Iraqis doing anything-and they are certainly not fighting to gain control in the south.

So after months of working to put together Iraqi security forces, right now, there seem to be none working.

	08-04-2004 11:32									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc When Sen. Byrd says the following. "$121 billion later [total occupation cost], and just 2,324 of the 78,224 Iraqi police are "fully qualified," according to the Pentagon. Nearly 60,000 of those same police officers have had no formal training -- none!" Then I would say that there are entirely different reasons behind the lack of security in Iraq. More disturbing is that Rumsfeld seems to believe that there are somewhere around 200.000 Iraqi police and armymen in Iraq, working for the CPA.

Schroeder said long ago, that even though he won't send troops, Germany offers help with training of the Iraqi police and civil authorities. Arrogant fleering from across the Atlantic was the answer. Perhaps some short-sighted minds understand now, how useful it would have been to accept this offer.

	08-04-2004 11:40									#180
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No oil for you Sir Ralph