08-04-2004 11:41									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Schroeder said long ago, that even though he won't send troops, Germany offers help with training of the Iraqi police and civil authorities. Arrogant fleering from across the Atlantic was the answer. Perhaps some short-sighted minds understand now, how useful it would have been to accept this offer.

You got the actual details of the deal and the rejection of the offer?

Actually I think Chirac vetoed it.

	08-04-2004 11:46									#182
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As far as I know, it hasn't been officially rejected, but rather largely ignored. At least I never heard any acceptance or that the training started (which certainly would have made it in the news). Some people made fun of it, and that's all I heard of this.

I don't see how Chirac could veto anything Germany is offering for herself (not Europe as a whole).

	08-04-2004 11:48									#183
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But Chirac runs the French Union

	08-04-2004 11:50									#184
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I can't look up a source now (rushing to work), but it can't be hard to find. It dated in the time the US got the UN resolution for the occupation of Iraq (last autumn, IIRC).

French Union , sure.

	08-04-2004 12:05									#185
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Iraq One Year Later

quote: Is America better off as a result of our war in Iraq? The young men and women who were hurt or killed certainly are no better off. Their families are no better off. Taxpayers are no better off. Whether we are safer from terrorism here at home is an open question. We all hope and pray nothing happens. But even our own intelligence forces cautioned that an invasion and occupation of Muslim Iraq could breed resentment among sympathetic Muslims and serve as a recruiting tool for al Qaeda. As commentator Lew Rockwell states, "It is not caving in to the bees to stop poking a stick into their hive." Are the Iraqis better off? Saddam is gone, along with his murderous cohorts, and that certainly presents a positive opportunity for the Iraqi people. But we cannot be sure that the Hussein regime will be replaced by something better. Iraq is still very unstable and divided between Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd factions. Civil war could ensue upon the departure of American troops.

	08-04-2004 12:06									#186
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It's only been a year

	08-04-2004 12:22									#187
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I went and had a look recently at the Vietnam casualties year by year from when the advisers went in in 1963. To my surprise I found that whilst the Iraq casualties are not similar they are still comparable.

Apparently one thing that is keeping KIA figures down in Iraq is body armour. Unfortunately or fortunately this, and advances in medicine and casevac, also means more casualties are surviving with catastrophic injuries.

	08-04-2004 12:25									#188
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Your first point was a complete troll so cut it out dickhead

Point 2 is worthwhile however

	08-04-2004 13:47									#189
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quote: "It is not caving in to the bees to stop poking a stick into their hive."

That's a great quote, I think it could make it into my sig (well, sigs are spam, but anyway).

Overall I sincerely hope, that the United States don't fail in Iraq. It was not good to poke the stick into their hive in the first place, but it would be catastrophic to poke it and then run away. This beehive has to be contained and civilized now no matter how much they sting. And these pointless and childish arguments should stop at once. Nobody wants a failure in Iraq. Not the new Spain, not Germany and not even France. Let everyone help in the matter he is best. The United States and some others provide the muscle, no doubt. But don't undervalue neither the silk glove of diplomacy nor the knowledge in education, training and nation building the others can provide. As the last unpleasant events show, all these elements are necessary and should be welcome.

	08-04-2004 14:56									#190
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I wonder how many mosques will be blown up today.

I just saw a clip of a huge convoy of ordinary Baghdadis in cars and trucks taking relief supplies and blood to Fallujah. I don't think they'll be allowed to get there (because in Liberated Iraq you can't go where you please) but I suppose it's the thought that counts.

	08-04-2004 16:05									#191
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BAGHDAD, April 8 (Reuters) - U.S.-led coalition forces do
not have control of the cities of Najaf and Kut, where Shi'ite
militiamen have seized control of key buildings in the centre of
the towns, the top U.S. general in Iraq said on Thursday.
Lieutenant-General Ricardo Sanchez said coalition troops in
the cities -- who include Ukrainian and Spanish soldiers -- were
in their bases on the edge of the towns.

	08-04-2004 16:07									#192
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Yeah, and the support for the insurgents seems to be building. Oerdin better start handing out a lot more candy or the coalition will lose hearts and minds permanently.

	08-04-2004 16:15									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Felch Shock and Awe fails because it doesn't frighten people. Shock and awe are by their nature temporary. Death is permanent.

"Shock and Awe" was incredibly successful. It's a strategy for winning the war, not the peace. We won the war easily.

	08-04-2004 16:20									#194
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What do you mean no mayor international backlash? The story is not even fully out. 1. The US can claim it was in the heat of mayor combat-if at any point you guys have 1300 troops trying to pacify a town, meet very heavy resistance, and bomb a mosque, well, then you can ask for equal treatment. 2. sadly, the US gets special rules to play by-not fair to anyone else, but as they say, the law for the rich ain;t the same... It won;t do **** to win hearts and minds, and even if this operation succeeds in rooting out most militiamen there NOW, it won;t do much to prevent new kids signing up, specially if too much coolateral damage occurs.

Is there something wrong with your keyboard? I don't believe I've ever seen you spell "major" correctly...

	08-04-2004 16:31									#195
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I'd be more worried by the consistent use of semicolons for apostrophes.

	08-04-2004 16:32									#196
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In Afghanistan the Taliban intially tried to use Mosques as fighting positions and as supply depotes but when it became clear the allies would attack any Mosque used for military purposes the Taliban stopped using Mosques and switched to using caves.

	08-04-2004 16:34									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich "Shock and Awe" was incredibly successful. It's a strategy for winning the war, not the peace. We won the war easily.

It's a bit like the nerd who scored with the babe, and wakes up in his hotel only to find she's stolen all his clothes.

	08-04-2004 16:36									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'd be more worried by the consistent use of semicolons for apostrophes.

I always thought that was a browser thing

	08-04-2004 18:19									#199
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major, mayor, whatever.

Grammar Nazi's get the chair eventually, you know.

	08-04-2004 18:29									#200
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS So you're giving me **** and agreeing with me at the same time...

Your "style," for lack of a better word, irritates the hell out of me. You make some valid points, but you do it in an assinine way (sorta like Sava, but worse somehow).

You come off like a riled up 14 yr old. All the time. Much sound and fury, which serves to largely obscure your substance.

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 18:38									#201
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It's his lack of subtlety, or nuance, or even the hint he might perhaps give some understanding to the toher side, or that he is not 100% correct.

Sure, I can argue arrogantly (and do more often than not), but I think I at least have some understanding of the other side's points and do not see them with complete contempt, for no reason.

	08-04-2004 19:26									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's a bit like the nerd who scored with the babe, and wakes up in his hotel only to find she's stolen all his clothes.

You know you have too many of these analogies that just scream personal first hand experience.

	08-04-2004 19:30									#203
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quote: Originally posted by GePap major, mayor, whatever. Grammar Nazi's get the chair eventually, you know.

You finally used an apostrophe, and of course you used it where it doesn't belong - the nominative singular is Nazis.

	08-04-2004 19:33									#205
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Al-jazeera have some interesting pictures from Falluja. Apparently 8 women and 16 children were killed in the initial fighting. There is a photo-series of dead Iraqi children and babies. Supporters of the war should take a view.

	08-04-2004 19:35									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You finally used an apostrophe, and of course you used it where it doesn't belong - the nominative singular is Nazis.

True, except that it's the nominative plural. The nominative singular is Nazi.

	08-04-2004 19:36									#207
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Actually, no, supporters of the occupation, Tripledoc.

The war itself is over, and now you have people who opposed the war but now that's been done feel that we must see the reconstruction & transfer to democracy (or at least something vaguely resembling it) through. Me, for example.

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 19:38									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph True, except that it's the nominative plural. The nominative singular is Nazi.

*slap myself*

I must commend the swift number Nazi action ...

	08-04-2004 19:40									#209
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Does the numerous mentioning of the word Nazi now mean, that this thread is hopelessly godwinized?

	08-04-2004 19:44									#210
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Godwin Nazi!