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Mr. Nice Guy
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"I'm gonna speak softly, but carry a BIG STICK!!!"
Mar 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
So sorry, but I think you'll be rather disappointed. This type of find isn't unique, so there's quite a bit of documented understanding of the processes involved in things getting buried in glaciers and then getting spit out later. Aircraft flying into mountains back in the bad ol' days before modern onboard navigation systems are the most common example, with plenty of USAF speciments in Alaska, and some civil aviation specimines in the Andes mountains.
FYI, I'm not an atheist, so your usual duck-and-run fundy arguments about evil atheists and media lies won't really cut it.
There's a bunch of things we know about glaciers, so unless you want to posit (without any Biblical proof or any reason God would do so) that this particular chunk of glacier on Mt. Ararat behaves differently from every other one in the world, you're going to have to live with a few unpleasant details for the Noah's Ark is here theory.
1) Glaciers move, and they do it at different rates depending on where you are, as a function of proximity to underlying terrain, terrain friction, ice depth, sun and wind exposure, deposition rates of new snow or rain, and subsurface water.
2) This variation in movement is more pronounced on a small scale.
3) The result of this is that large things in glaciers such as airplanes tend to get spectacularly torn up and distributed very unevenly (this is distinct from the debris field caused by initial impact)
Noah's ark was obviously wood, and depending on how literally you want to take the date, and how much of a Bishop Usher fan you are, somewhere around 4,000 to 5,000 years ago. Nothing in the Bible says anything about any special wood, time for drying, construction techniques, etc., so the best info we have is early Phoenician and Greek, etc. shipbuilding techniques and the known properties of indigenous trees. Whatever you get for serviceable boats, you don't get an icebreaker. We also have a lot of info (courtesy of some lost whalers and early Arctic and Antarctic expeditions, what happens to wooden ships that get caught in moving ice sheets. The ice tries to move in the direction it wants to, encounters the hull, and tries to go around. Which causes a lot of compression and shear stress.
What you've got in those photos is something (or somethings) at one hell of an angle, in or over a little ravine or draw in the mountain face (color and shape of ice tell you that, plus the visible terrain), which means there is more rapid ice movement on the top than near the mountain face, and more rapid ice movement over the ravine or draw than on the elevated portions of the mountain face. That means 4,000 years of wood being sheared, torn, and squished all to hell and back, and no way that any large scale structure would be even close to intact. Also, the upper portion would move more slowly than the lower portion, (due to terrain friction), so you'd expect the Ark (if it was there) remains to be spread in the direction of ice flow for over a mile, maybe more, depending on movement rates and microclimate over the intervening thousands of years.
In short, whatever that is is extremely unlikely to be any integrated structure of any grat age, especially a wood ship. Even if Noah's Ark was up there, the glacier would have mostly reduced it to a spread out mishmash of wood fibers, mulch, and the occasional odd sized something that looked almost like driftwood. Knees, pieces of keel, etc. could be identified with some luck, but only if you were able to completely remove the ice from that area, and if they'd managed to fall someplace where they were exceptionally sheltered from substantial shearing.
The best place to recover any such items wouldn't be near the top of the mountain, it woud be near the base of the glacier much further down the mountain, especially if that ravine or draw ran for any great distance. Glacial ice can flow pretty fast (quite a few feet per year) in the right conditions, so nothing that landed up high in the ice thousands of years ago is still going to be up that high now. |
But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." --Matthew 19:26
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Mr. Nice Guy
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"I'm gonna speak softly, but carry a BIG STICK!!!"
Mar 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Ah, but none of them were found in what would be trully miraculous situations, as the likelyhood of finding more than a chunk of wood on top of the mountain would be. We find artifacts from the Pharaoes form thousands of year before biblical time-of course we will then be able to find things from the times of the bible.
YOU are the one claiming something miraculous is afoot when all of a sudden someone comes and burst your bubble by posting a very convincing piece on why the lieklyhood of anything resembling a boat being found in those conditions is piss poor to impossible at best.
You claim the "aethists" won;t change their minds-then when someone simple tells you the scientific facts don;y back your hopes, you go of running to claim some miracle will save your ass.
Well, they say God helps those who help themselves. He does not go around validating people's poor faith with parlor tricks.
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There are two possibilities (other than decomposition):
1)It could be petrified. Given the fact that it would've been a very solidly built vessel to withstand a year at sea, built from gopherwood and covered in pitch, as well as being preserved by the ice which eventually settled over it, pertrification is a very real possibility. Remember, Wooly Mammoths have been found almost perfectly preserved in similar places such as Siberia. In some cases, even the contents of their stomachs were still preserved.
The size and durability of the Ark would be almost unprecidented by early man.
2)God could simply desire for it to be found. Perhaps (pure speculation here) as an end-times "sign of the season". Kind of an ironic symbol of the "days of Noah" coming full-circle. If this were the case, no Christian would doubt His ability to preserve/petrify the ark.
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27-04-2004 22:47
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