 |
|
Flip McWho
|
|
New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:35
|
|
2000yrs ago. Yeah you mean Jesus.
Isn't 'Almighty' synonymous with all-powerful?
Also all-powerful means you can't have limitations otherwise you ain't all-powerful.
What is the point in faith anyway? And faith in what way? The Catholic way? Protestant way? Muslim way? And Salvation from what? My sins?
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Flip McWho
|
|
New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:35
|
|
quote:
Whatever makes the most sense? |
Open to opinion. Does explaining everything away with God's will make more sense than any scientific way? Or the possibility that we haven't reached that point in understanding yet?
quote:
Or whatever you feel comfortable with? |
As a side shouldn't you be comfortable in your faith?
quote:
Do you not believe that having faith in a lie is wreckless to your soul? |
Again open to opinion. Your making the assumption that God does indeed exist, also that we have souls.
quote:
Be a slave to sin. or Become free from the bondage of sin. |
So not believing in God means that you are a slave to sin then? That's a pretty bold assumption.
One argument I've always wanted to try so please bear with me and answer if you could. Ummm God is supposed to be forgiving right? So if you live your life according to your principles, however those principles mean that you don't believe that God exists. Ok you die and well Jesus or whoever is deciding your worth and well its obvious that you were wrong in your faith. Well the basic question is does God punish you for your ignorance in life?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mr. Nice Guy
|
 |
"I'm gonna speak softly, but carry a BIG STICK!!!"
Mar 2002
time: 23:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Flip McWho
Open to opinion. Does explaining everything away with God's will make more sense than any scientific way? Or the possibility that we haven't reached that point in understanding yet? |
There is still a lot about science we do not understand. As a matter of fact, there is much much more that we do not understand than what we do understand. I mean think about it. There is this vast universe we live in and we've barely even scratched the surface of all the knowledge and understanding there is in it.
Also, science on one hand never seems to really make up it's mind. Science is constantly being retested and reinvented. But faith in God, at least for the most part, has made up it's mind and has even shown evidence for this point of view.
How can you put faith in something that has few certainties (like science)?
quote:
As a side shouldn't you be comfortable in your faith? |
A true saint is ALWAYS comfortable with his/her faith. 
quote:
Again open to opinion. Your making the assumption that God does indeed exist, also that we have souls. |
Alright, look. If you truly want to listen to what I have to say then you need to just assume right now that there is a God. I'm not asking you to change your mind about anything; I just need you to listen with an open mind.
"Let he who has ears, let him hear."
quote:
So not believing in God means that you are a slave to sin then? That's a pretty bold assumption. |
Well, it's not my assumption. God said so. And this comes straight out of the Bible:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...=on&showxref=on
quote:
One argument I've always wanted to try so please bear with me and answer if you could. Ummm God is supposed to be forgiving right? So if you live your life according to your principles, however those principles mean that you don't believe that God exists. Ok you die and well Jesus or whoever is deciding your worth and well its obvious that you were wrong in your faith. Well the basic question is does God punish you for your ignorance in life? |
Those who have never heard the Word of God (Holy Bible) are innocent regardless of what they believe when they die. But those have heard His Word and then rejected Him will be punished severely.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Flip McWho
|
|
New Zealand
May 2002
time: 17:35
|
|
quote:
There is still a lot about science we do not understand. As a matter of fact, there is much much more that we do not understand than what we do understand. I mean think about it. There is this vast universe we live in and we've barely even scratched the surface of all the knowledge and understanding there is in it. Also, science on one hand never seems to really make up it's mind. Science is constantly being retested and reinvented. But faith in God, at least for the most part, has made up it's mind and has even shown evidence for this point of view. How can you put faith in something that has few certainties (like science)? |
But then how can you put faith in something that doesn't necessarily exist (as in what proof?). Also to say all that about science then turn around and say that there being a God explains everything, well sorry but thats rather moronic.
quote:
A true saint is ALWAYS comfortable with his/her faith. |
Yeah I'll grant you that. Though nice use of the word saint. Does that mean that only saints are comfortable with their faith? (yeah sorry small nitpick)
quote:
Alright, look. If you truly want to listen to what I have to say then you need to just assume right now that there is a God. I'm not asking you to change your mind about anything; I just need you to listen with an open mind. |
Ok but doesn't my assuming that there is a God automatically make your points sound?
quote:
Well, it's not my assumption. God said so. And this comes straight out of the Bible: |
Is that supposed to link to Luke 13:15-17? Cause that bit has lost me a little. To me that passage doesn't appear to have anything to do with being a slave of sin if you don't believe.
quote:
Those who have never heard the Word of God (Holy Bible) are innocent regardless of what they believe when they die. But those have heard His Word and then rejected Him will be punished severely. |
Fair enough. I don't think much of that attitude but then who am I to question God. Ok, in the instances of agnostics (like me) whats God's opinion on that?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
ifj
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
Well, as I pointed out a couple of posts ago, what's the point for fundies like yourself to look for facts and evidence of the existance of a biblical God, if's all about faith?
Go to your church and have your faith. |
I don't go to church, and I thought I would show you a verse or two.
quote:
John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. |
That is a very real statement Jesus made, and it is a promise he keeps. You have to have faith in him and his power. You have to live according to his ways. This doesn't mean go to church and pretend. It doesn't mean to go to church and let someone else try and teach you.
quote:
John 14:15-17
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
|
quote:
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
|
quote:
1 John 2:26-27
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will F6 abide in Him.
|
Don't let satan use other verses in the bible which talk about decons and teachers to try and trick you into believing you have to follow another man's beliefs and learn the truth from behind a pulpit. It is a lie. For understanding of those verses lean on the comforter I just quoted above and he will teach the truth.
quote:
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
|
Yes there are thousands of denominations out there preaching a jumbled mess of beliefs. Most all of them are men following men. Men going to Bible College to learn the bible according to that college's beliefs so they can go stand behind a pulpit doing teach those same beliefs to their congregation.
This doesn't mean this is the biggest who-ha in all of the land. It means Satan has spent more time tearing down Christianity than anyother religon. Why? Perhaps it is because it is somewhere mixed up in all of that jumbled mess you can find the truth, and THAT truth will set you free.
Peace in Him
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Arrian
|
 |
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
|
|
quote:
There is this vast universe we live in and we've barely even scratched the surface of all the knowledge and understanding there is in it. Also, science on one hand never seems to really make up it's mind. Science is constantly being retested and reinvented. But faith in God, at least for the most part, has made up it's mind and has even shown evidence for this point of view. How can you put faith in something that has few certainties (like science)? |
This is pure gold. 
First off, thank you for pointing out that science, at least proper science, is NOT about faith. The retesting and reinventing you speak of is part of the process of the scientific method: testing theories, peer review, etc.
You say that faith in God, by which I think you mean religion (specifically Christianity), has made up its mind. Well, that should be pretty easy when no empirical evidence is required and anyone who disagrees can be labeled a heretic! But wait, it isn't. There are tons of different interpretations of the Bible alone (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, etc.). The Jews have several different schools of thought (Orthodox, Reform, etc), and of course the Muslims had Shiites & Sunnis. And, as they like to say in infomercials: much, much more!
All of whom believe they are practicing the true faith. Bah.
To the extent I have faith in anything, it's probably faith in the peer review process and the human beings who are a part of it. I am not a scientist, and even if I was, I wouldn't personally watch each and every experiment scientists do, because that is impossible. The results of experiments are published and reviewed by other scientists, however. The idea is that because questioning the results is a core principle of science, that mistakes or outright lies will be caught. I wouldn't really call it faith, but trust. I trust that, for the most part, the process works. It is precisely the fact that science allows for retesting & reinvention that inspires some trust from me.
Religion, particularly when looked at from the viewpoint of a historian (or in my case someone who studied history as an undergrad), does not inspire any trust in me at all. Rather, it tends to disgust me. History is full of examples of unscrupulous men who used the word of God or whatever to convince fools to kill each other or to give them their money. It's so obvious that faith blinds people. To me, when I look at the Old Testament, I see a people's creation myth, with layers of mystical justification for killing other people & stealing their land, and then a bunch of moralistic tales designed to keep the people in line and prevent nasty diseases (pork bad!). When I look at the NT, I see some great ideas that pretty quickly were subverted, twisted, and used, mixed with some standard morals of the day (still kinda anti-women, IIRC, and definitely anti-homosexuality. I know because Ben Kenobi likes to provide us with the quotes). Anyway, it makes the most sense TO ME that the Bible is a collection of writings by human beings, for human beings, and was not inspired by some supernatural being at all.
What was that quote? Humanity will not be free until the last politician is strangled by the entrails of the last priest? Something like that.
-Arrian
|
|
| |
|
|
|
ifj
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
Well, that's very nice of you and all but it doesn't mean anything to me. It's kind of pointless really as I'm an atheist. Not because of what some church says about this or that but because I don't have faith. You could quote the entire bible for all I care.
When I said that he could go to his church I didn't mean it in a literal sense. Instead, it was my way to point out that he could have his faith, but that it's pointless to try to force faith upon other people. |
It may have done you good to actually read the verses given to you and give them thought. I have told you that you can know the Father through Jesus and not just believe if only at first you do believe. You are correct, no one can force it on you. The Father in heaven will not even do that. If he were to do so you would have no choice and he would be a dictator. But he seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and truth. This is a mighty gift you turn down.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
ifj
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin
I don't like to repeat myself, I've made my choice, so back off. |
Have a nice day.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Arrian
|
|
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
|
|
quote:
So you're saying that if one is a historian one cannot be religious? |
You have problems with reading comprehension, don't you? I will repeat myself, slowing, with the main point in all caps, so you get it this time: RELIGION, particularly when looked at from the viewpoint of a historian (or in my case someone who studied history as an undergrad), DOES NOT INSPIRE TRUST IN ME AT ALL.
Note the "in me."
quote:
And to focus exclusively on the rotten people within the different religions through human history without looking at the contributions these religions made to their civilization's culture is extreme biased, distorted history. |
Religion has done good and bad throughout history, but I wasn't trying to assign blame or call religion evil. What I was saying is that History is full of examples of the consequences of blind faith.
quote:
I would vouch that it's mostly extreme fundamentalist of any religion that have disdain for scientific thought and inquiry. Most other mainstream religious people have found their own way to have faith in God while appreciating what science has to offer. |
Of course. Many scientists are also religious. Somehow they reconcile their faith with their scientific studies. And that's fine by me. But there were are couple of fundies (or rather a fundy and his DL) in this thread, and it was primarily to them that I was addressing my post. Well, them and the peanut gallery, as always here on 'poly.
Anyway, consider your objection on the part of reasonable Christians logged, MrFun. 
-Arrian
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Arrian
|
|
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
|
|
Hmm, we're getting along too well. This is 'poly OT!
Let's see if I can stir something up...
Returning to the point about the good religion (or religious people) has done throughout History, it is certainly my impression that the good is outweighed by the bad.
This is also the case with just about any "cause" that has its foundation in faith. Because faith can be used to circumvent logic, it is particularly useful to those who would like to have people doing all manner of things to futher their ends. There's nothing more dangerous than a zealot, except perhaps the person who knows how to manipulate the zealot. It doesn't have to be limited to religion at all.
But so far in human history, it is religious zealotry that has been most abundant. Perhaps in thousands of years, non-religious "isms" will have overtaken religions as the primary home of zealots, but we've a long way to go before that happens.
So, when you allude to the good done by religion, I'll grant you that some good things were done (saving manuscripts during the Dark Ages, charity work, etc). However, I still think that on balance, religion has had a negative effect on humanity.
Bring it. 
-Arrian
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MrFun
|
 |
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm, we're getting along too well. This is 'poly OT!
Let's see if I can stir something up...
Returning to the point about the good religion (or religious people) has done throughout History, it is certainly my impression that the good is outweighed by the bad.
This is also the case with just about any "cause" that has its foundation in faith. Because faith can be used to circumvent logic, it is particularly useful to those who would like to have people doing all manner of things to futher their ends. There's nothing more dangerous than a zealot, except perhaps the person who knows how to manipulate the zealot. It doesn't have to be limited to religion at all.
But so far in human history, it is religious zealotry that has been most abundant. Perhaps in thousands of years, non-religious "isms" will have overtaken religions as the primary home of zealots, but we've a long way to go before that happens.
So, when you allude to the good done by religion, I'll grant you that some good things were done (saving manuscripts during the Dark Ages, charity work, etc). However, I still think that on balance, religion has had a negative effect on humanity.
Bring it.
-Arrian |
Well, being a gay man, I definitely know the dangers of fundamentalists.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
03-05-2004 07:54
|