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Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 28-04-2004 22:32
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You're right

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 28-04-2004 22:51 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Where did the water go? . . . it went underground.



Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 28-04-2004 22:53
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I couldn't have gone underground. Hell - a very hot place that's not about to freeze over any time soon - is situated underground. In that case the water would come up again as steam.

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
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  Old Post 28-04-2004 23:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin

But that would be to mess with the peoples free will, we can't do that could we, that would be wrong. Instead, God gives people free will and kills them with extreme and brutal force when they do not behave as God wants them to behave. Big difference, much more moral.


It's impossible to reconcile the psycho old testament god with the long haired peacenik free will version of the new testament. Thats why its called faith.

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
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  Old Post 28-04-2004 23:15
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... and that's also why the modern day fundamentalists (as well as the relic hunters of older times I suppose) twisted desire to find proof and logical explanaitions for everything is so absurd.

loinburger is offline loinburger
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Jul 1999
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  Old Post 28-04-2004 23:27 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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In order for the water to have gone underground, it would have needed to displace trillions upon trillions of tons of molten rock. Even aside from the problem of the huge quantity of steam that this would have released, there's still the problem that water is not denser than rock -- you can't displace molten rock with water without applying a tremendous amount of pressure to the water, pressure that would have crushed the life out of every living thing on the planet.

The problem is that the flood myth was based on a flat earth, where the water level could be decreased by simply raising the flat earth back above the waters of the firmament. However, as all but a few die-hard fundamentalists admit, the earth is a spheriod -- disposing of 50 times the current quantity of water on the planet is not so simple when you don't have an infinite ocean underneath you.

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
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  Old Post 28-04-2004 23:44
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Spoilsport!

How dare you try to interject logic into these solemn preceedings!

loinburger is offline loinburger
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  Old Post 28-04-2004 23:52 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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Sorry.

God did it, and everybody who disagrees with me is going to hell. Better?

East Street Trader is offline East Street Trader
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 00:01
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I always liked those toy arks with all the model animals to fit inside.

The story is good value for those alone.

Not to mention the rainbow. Who would be willing to lose those.

I think we can find a place for the water so as to keep such good things.

Somewhere alongside all the missing socks and biros should do it. Plenty of room there.

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 00:26
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What I wanna know is how come we've cockroaches and fire ants, but the unicorns were drowned

Arrian is offline Arrian
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 00:28
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Punishment for our sins, of course.

-Arrian

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by East Street Trader
I always liked those toy arks with all the model animals to fit inside.

The story is good value for those alone.


Fisher-Price has a real cute one in their "Little People" series.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by SpencerH
What I wanna know is how come we've cockroaches and fire ants, but the unicorns were drowned


The roaches and ants stowed away on the ark. Little buggers find their way into everything.

Mr. Nice Guy is offline Mr. Nice Guy
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Mar 2002
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Q: How do we know there's a God?
A: The bible says so.
Q: How do we know the bible is true?
A: Because it's the Word of God.

Good logic there, Mr Nice Guy


Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
Was blind, but now I see

Arrian is offline Arrian
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 01:14
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Nice rebuttal.



Good song, though.

-Arrian

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 01:19 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Che, it matters to me not one iota if you believe me or in anything, and the same goes for Krapkin.
The water was higher than Ararat, it covered all; and for you 2 whiz kids, Ararat isn't the highest point on earth.
If your only rebuttal is mindless giggling, that's not much worth.

Japher is offline Japher
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:03
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Where the water came from
Where the water went


If you factor platonic activity into the occurances around the flood, or even as a cause for the flood, it actually could have some truth to it. Put I'll defer to the geology experts on that matter.

What if Ararat grew out of the ocean under the ark? So that the ark didn't land on the mountain, but the mountain picked the ark out of the ocean?

loinburger is offline loinburger
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:14 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
What if Ararat grew out of the ocean under the ark? So that the ark didn't land on the mountain, but the mountain picked the ark out of the ocean?

I don't see why a "God made the mountains in the blink of an eye" explanation is necessary, when a "God just vanished away the extra water" explanation would suffice. You don't get geologic activity like that without divine intervention, and if you're resorting to miracles as a means of providing a "plausible" explanation of the flood then there's no way to judge that one miracle is more "plausible" than any other.

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:16
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What does plate tectonics have to do with divine intervention?

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:17
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The fact that Christian feel the need to come up with scientific responses to biblical claims shows only that Scientific humanism won, and now Christians themselves feel they have to compete in that field. Any oldtime self-respecting Christian would have simple said God made it so an left it at that.

loinburger is offline loinburger
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:19 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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quote:
What does plate tectonics have to do with divine intervention?

Nothing, unless you're going to propose that a 5-mile high mountain (Everest) could be created in only a few thousand years. Even the most violent earthquakes (8 on the richter scale) only shift the land up or down a couple of feet, so to have our current set of mountain ranges you'd be talking about a planet being constantly rocked by earthquakes more violent than any we have ever witnessed. In other words, you'd be talking about divine intervention.

This is in addition to the problem that an underground reservoir of water would be boiling hot when it was ejected from the mantle, plus that a set of violent earthquakes sufficient to release the water from these underground reservoirs would have had catastrophic results on the rest of the planet. Noah may not have drowned when he built his ark, but he'd still be either crushed or boiled alive.

Japher is offline Japher
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:32
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quote:
The fact that Christian feel the need to come up with scientific responses to biblical claims shows only that Scientific humanism won, and now Christians themselves feel they have to compete in that field. Any oldtime self-respecting Christian would have simple said God made it so an left it at that.


I'm no christian.

quote:
Noah may not have drowned when he built his ark, but he'd still be either crushed or boiled alive.


Noah was a stud, and you know it!

loinburger is offline loinburger
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:33 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
Noah was a stud, and you know it!

Hell yeah! He knew how to party down.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher


I'm no christian.


You didn't write the site.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
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May 1999
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 05:01
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MtG -
quote:
That was one of three questions that got me kicked out of a Baptist Sunday school when I was four.


A really smart ass even back then I see, what were the other two?

Loin -
quote:
I'd give thanks to the gods for sparing Utnapishtim, I s'pose.


No, give thanks to Enki/Ea for telling Utnapishtim/Zuisudra the flood was coming when the other gods wanted to keep it a secret.

Slow -
quote:
Where did the water go? I wish I had the time and/or inclination to research for all you lazy asses, but it went underground. As a matter of fact, that very question was addressed on ABC news program this morning. That will give you a lead at least.


6 miles of water went underground? Is that the hollow earth theory?

quote:
The water was higher than Ararat, it covered all; and for you 2 whiz kids, Ararat isn't the highest point on earth.


Who said it was? The Ark supposedly came to rest on the mountains of Ararat but the Bible says the waters covered the highest mountains which are ~10,000 feet higher, that's a bit less than 6 miles of water. Gee Slow, I didn't know you were a fundie. Actually, the Bible says the fountains of the deep were opened contributing to the flood and that appears to be a reference to the oceans, so something must have caused a great upheaval to send the oceans up onto the land.

I forget where I read it, but there is an S African myth about a great wave crossing the land. Maybe the end of the ice age began with or instigated a partial slippage of the ice sheet in Antarctica into the ocean. And as I mentioned, the Tlingit believe the Flood occured 13,000 years ago which coincides with the end of the ice age and the flooding of vast stretches of coastline and low lying areas like the Bering land bridge, the Sunda Shelf, etc. This I believe is the origin of Flood myths from around the world, but not a flood that covered the highest mountains.

Btw Slow, did you know that nowhere in the Bible does it say God created this planet or the universe? The words "Heaven" and "Earth" in Genesis have specific meanings, heaven was the firmament God used to divide the pre-existing waters and the Earth meant only the dry land revealed when the waters under the firmament were gathered together/receded to form seas. God didn't create the water, he merely established borders for the Seas once they formed. And the Earth existed before the dry land appeared, it was submerged under the "deep" mentioned in Gen 1:2. You'd be amazed how many creation myths from around the world claim God sent an animal down into the waters to bring up dirt/mud so God could begin forming the dry land.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 09:36
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quote:
Originally posted by SpencerH
It's impossible to reconcile the psycho old testament god with the long haired peacenik free will version of the new testament.


Likewise, you cannot reconcile the wimpy YHWH of the OT (who could not overcome iron chariots) with the omnipotent one of the NT.

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
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  Old Post 29-04-2004 15:08
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
If your only rebuttal is mindless giggling, that's not much worth.

Oh, it's worth so little compared to literal interpetation of fairy tales and myths.

Mr. Nice Guy is offline Mr. Nice Guy
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  Old Post 03-05-2004 07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kropotkin

Oh, it's worth so little compared to literal interpetation of fairy tales and myths.


"Fairy tales and myths," eh? This sounds so familiar.

What else would you expect from the Almighty?

Flip McWho is offline Flip McWho
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May 2002
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  Old Post 03-05-2004 07:33
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Dude that doesn't make sense. That ain't a rebuttal.

Why doesn't the 'Almighty' just show himself ... whats the big deal with remaining hidden?

Mr. Nice Guy is offline Mr. Nice Guy
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  Old Post 03-05-2004 07:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Flip McWho
Dude that doesn't make sense. That ain't a rebuttal.

Why doesn't the 'Almighty' just show himself ... whats the big deal with remaining hidden?


HE DID!!! 2000 years ago, that is.

And if he really did show Himself to the world today, what would be the point in having faith? Faith is one thing needed for salvation, so there must be a faith.

Anyway my previous rebuttal is a rebuttal. The point is what kind of God is acceptable to you--One that is all-powerful and bears no limitations or one that does have limitations?

 
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