04-05-2004 03:44									#61
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But he may take it as a sign of encouragment!

	04-05-2004 03:46									#62
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quote: The explanation may lie in the fact that the evangelicals won't be friends with him.

Has he tried approaching an evangelical to be friends with him?

	04-05-2004 03:49									#63
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quote: I wasn't aware abortions occured in the bedroom, so I can only think of your answer as a nonsequiter.

quote: I think the point here was obviously referring to the GOP's penchant for trying to dicate people's sexual mores through support of anti-sodomy laws and the like.

Restrictions on abortion have nothing to do with regulating sexual conduct.

After all, didn't Clinton say that they ought to be rare?

	04-05-2004 03:57									#64
	Re: Re: Republicans Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "If you're fiscally responsible, this is not your party." As opposed to the party that talks about fiscal responsibility while at the same time argues for even more big government spending programs without sufficently raising taxes to cover it.

wait wait wait. bush talked about fiscal responsibility hand HE HAS GONE AGAINST THAT COMPLETELY! Bush has expanded government while lowering taxes. youre just pissing in the wind

	04-05-2004 04:00									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Restrictions on abortion have nothing to do with regulating sexual conduct.

Umm, that was exactly my point. The author wasn't referring to abortions, so Shi's "rebuttal" was irrelevant to the point being expressed.

	04-05-2004 04:01									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Has he tried approaching an evangelical to be friends with him?

You and MrFun can almost compete for awards in humorlessness.

	04-05-2004 04:02									#67
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What norm? 50% of people are not involved at all. You can;t call what 28% of the people who actually voted republican last time want as "the norm". Stupid two party dictatorship.

The 50% who can't be bothered to get involved don't count.

Seriously.

	04-05-2004 04:02									#68
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i should have read boris' replies. seriously though shi, youre supporting liars who tell you what want to believe than people who go against what you believe. sadly everything you say youre against besides abortion, and dictating homosexual's lives, are lies by the republicans

	04-05-2004 04:05									#69
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quote: You and MrFun can almost compete for awards in humorlessness.

Boris, Ben doesn't go around calling himself "MrFun", so he get somewhat of a pass for that .

	04-05-2004 04:16									#70
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quote: You and MrFun can almost compete for awards in humorlessness.

Being superserious can be funny...

Which is what I was trying to do.

	04-05-2004 04:18									#71
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quote: so Shi's "rebuttal" was irrelevant to the point being expressed.

The point being why one would want to support the republican party over the democrats?

I think Shi had an excellent rebuttal, and you're just dodging the issue.

If you believe that unborn children are persons, a progressive view, the dems have very little sustenance.

Edit:

Point still well taken, because the Dems argue that regulating abortion is akin to regulating sexual conduct.

So you are in disagreement with the Dems, Boris.

	04-05-2004 04:22									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The point being why one would want to support the republican party over the democrats?

Why again is it Democrats or nothing? False dichotomy. Nowhere did the author mention Democrats, and neither did Che.

quote: I think Shi had an excellent rebuttal, and you're just dodging the issue. If you believe that unborn children are persons, a progressive view, the dems have very little sustenance.

"Excellent rebuttals" don't use strawmen. Wilson's quote didn't mention abortion, it was not referring to abortion. So I can only think the rebuttal is a dodge that seeks to gloss over Wilson's criticism of the Republicans by saying "Well, the Dems are bad, too!" It utterly fails to address the point.

	04-05-2004 04:25									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Point still well taken, because the Dems argue that regulating abortion is akin to regulating sexual conduct.

No, they don't. I've never read any such equation, other than in the very general sense of one having dominion over one's body. That does not have anything to do with "bedrooms."

Secondly, what the Dems argue is irrelevant, because, for the upteenth time, Wilson is NOT a Democrat and is NOT writing on behalf of Democrats. Bringing up what Democrats believe is nothing but a strawman dodge of the points.

	04-05-2004 04:33									#74
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quote: False dichotomy. Nowhere did the author mention Democrats, and neither did Che.

Fair enough.

quote: "Excellent rebuttals" don't use strawmen.

So dragging out a strawman that the state should have a place in the bedrooms of the nation is a good argument?

It's a strawman of the position of the Republican party.

quote: Wilson's quote didn't mention abortion, it was not referring to abortion.

Yes it does, implicitly.

quote: No, they don't. I've never read any such equation, other than in the very general sense of one having dominion over one's body. That does not have anything to do with "bedrooms."

Sure they do. That's how we got into this mess, at least with Trudeau. Trudeau put abortions in the bedrooms, and argued that in liberalising sexual conduct also applies to abortions.

You are ignoring the history of the abortion movement in trying to seperate the two. Saying that the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation has become standard dogma for the Democrat party.

Do they apply this to abortion? Yes. Becuase they see abortions as being part of reproductive rights, and also about controlling your body. Everything is bundled together in one neat passage.

	04-05-2004 04:35									#75
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quote: If you're fiscally responsible, this is not your party. If you believe in a moderate foreign policy characterized by alliances, free trade and the ability to operate in an international environment, this is not your party. If you believe in limited federal government, this is not your party. If you believe that the government should stay out of your bedroom, this is very definitely not your party. In fact, I would argue that unless you believe in the American imperium, imposed on the world by force, or unless you believe in the literal interpretation of the Book of Revelations, this is not your party.

But the Democrats are WAY WAY worse.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You and MrFun can almost compete for awards in humorlessness. Boris, Ben doesn't go around calling himself "MrFun", so he get somewhat of a pass for that .

Yeah, what's with that? Is MrFun's name simply a general statement of sarcasm? I mean his posts aren't fun or funny at all..............

	04-05-2004 04:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat That would be "commodities broker."

Is that what they're calling migrant workers nowadays?

	04-05-2004 04:39									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon @ Mr Fun. Petition to Get Ming to Change Mr Fun's nick to "Mr Sad" Signed: Agathon

Imran Siddiqui
JohnT

	04-05-2004 04:46									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's a strawman of the position of the Republican party.

Is it? Then why is it the Republican party has been the one opposed to gay rights, which is quite relevant as a bedroom issue?

"In the bedroom" is a political euphemism for sexual activities, not abortion. Maybe it's different in Canada, but that's certainly how it is in U.S. politics.

quote: Yes it does, implicitly.

No it doesnt, as stated above.

quote: Sure they do. That's how we got into this mess, at least with Trudeau. Trudeau put abortions in the bedrooms, and argued that in liberalising sexual conduct also applies to abortions.

I was unaware that Trudeau was a member of the Democratic Party. You seem to have a nasty penchant for assuming what is true in Canadian politics is also true here. That isn't the case.

quote: You are ignoring the history of the abortion movement in trying to seperate the two.

No, I'm not making the same mistake as you are in comparing Canadian politics to American politics.

quote: Saying that the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation has become standard dogma for the Democrat party.

True, and they're quite right. And they're not referring to abortion here, but sexual mores. Look at the frickin' DNC website. Abortion isn't addressed under Civil Rights or Equality, but rather under Women's Issues and Health. THAT's the place where Dems put it.

None of this, of course, changes the fact that Wilson, not being a Democrat, has no responsibility for what the Democrats believe.

	04-05-2004 04:54									#79
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Well, then where does that particular quote, the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation come from? Trudeau.

In what context did he use that quote?

Let's go see.

"The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation."
Dec. 22, 1967

As Justice Minister, responding to criticism that he was making divorce easier, and relaxing laws against abortion and homosexuality.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/trud...isownwords.html

So the Dems liked the quote and continued to use the phrase. So do the supporters of abortion.

quote: Abortion isn't addressed under Civil Rights or Equality, but rather under Women's Issues and Health. THAT's the place where Dems put it.

So the vague 'women's issues' cannot encompass the point on the bedrooms of the nation?

This, by the way argues against you. Supposing that abortion was a civil rights issue, about exerting control over one's body, then why don't we find it under Civil Rights or Equality?

	04-05-2004 05:00									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, then where does that particular quote, the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation come from? Trudeau.

So, you think Trudeau invented the phrase, it wasn't in use before that?



Creative, but utterly unsubstantiated, and utterly irrelevant to American political discourse. I must say, I'd never dream of invading a Canadian politics thread and assuming what we do here is related to what they do there.

quote: So the vague 'women's issues' cannot encompass the point on the bedrooms of the nation?

You've yet to show they do. Would 'Men's issues' encompass such a thing? Women's issues relates to women's civil rights. This encompasses jobs and equality. A lot more than "bedroom" issues.

quote: This, by the way argues against you. Supposing that abortion was a civil rights issue, about exerting control over one's body, then why don't we find it under Civil Rights or Equality?

Women's Issues = Women's civil rights or equality. Not hard to grasp.

	04-05-2004 05:08									#81
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quote: it wasn't in use before that?

He popularised the expression, and he applied it to abortion. Those who use the phrase now, use it in the same way.

It doesn't seem hard to grasp that connection. If Trudeau can make it, why can't you?

quote: Women's Issues = Women's civil rights or equality. Not hard to grasp.

If this is true then the Democratic party does not believe in civil rights for men. Why have a seperate category for civil rights, and then another for women's rights?

I say they use 'women's issues' because it's a vague catch-all for stuff like abortion, and that they make a distinction between women's issues' and civil rights.

	04-05-2004 06:14									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi He popularised the expression

I'm sure you can prove that, too.

quote: It doesn't seem hard to grasp that connection. If Trudeau can make it, why can't you?

Maybe because we disagree with the connection?

Abortion is a medical/women's issue, not a sexual one. I promise you most Dems see it that way as well.

quote: If this is true then the Democratic party does not believe in civil rights for men. Why have a seperate category for civil rights, and then another for women's rights?

False dichotomy. Just because the Dems do not address civil rights for men specifically as a major issue does not mean they don't believe in them. They're platforms on civil rights is geared towards minorities who have traditionally suffered oppression.

The reason women's rights and civil rights are seperate is because not all women are ethnic minorities.

quote: I say they use 'women's issues' because it's a vague catch-all for stuff like abortion, and that they make a distinction between women's issues' and civil rights.

Yes, and and the distinction is that women's civil rights are a part of women's issues, whereas civil rights for minorities are under "Civil Rights." How does this in any way support the so far unfounded assertion that abortion is considered by the Dems to be "bedroom"?

	04-05-2004 06:27									#83
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quote: But the Democrats are WAY WAY worse.

First of all, broad generalizations about how either party will always act are bull. There are special situations, and they are usually conformed to.

That put aside, Democratic administrations, stereotypically, raise spending AND taxes, while Republican administrations raise spending and cut taxes, and hope the magic Economy Fairy will come along and suddenly increase tax revenues by so large a measure that the economy must be having breakneck growth to catch up with their cuts.

quote: John Kerry is one of Senate's most fervent and hardline liberals, who has consistently pushed for a huge welfare state and a weaker military.

Did you know you sound like Fez?

	04-05-2004 06:30									#84
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Did you know you sound like Fez?

He has his Senate record to point to.

	04-05-2004 06:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Or deliberately trying to distort my claim? I am not claiming that you cannot be gay and Republican -- the existence of the Log Cabin Republicans proves that. What I'm saying is that I find this to be a strange paradox in that too often, too many Republicans are more likely to be homophobic than Democrats. Which is not to say that there are no homophobic Democrats, or that there are no Democrats who would pander to homophobia for political gains (such as Bill Clinton). But gays have a stronger chance with the Democratic party than the Republican party simply because the religious-right has too much influence over the Republican party.

Gays don't have a frigging chance with either

	04-05-2004 06:49									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara To be honest, there are a great deal of Republicans with integrity. I'm hoping they realize the danger before it's too late, and take back control of their party.

We've tried

	04-05-2004 06:50									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I think those folks are perfectly happy with Mr. Bush.

HELL NO

	04-05-2004 06:53									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich We've tried

Uhuh... Says the guy with a name synonomous with crystal power...

	04-05-2004 06:54									#89
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You don't know the history of my nick, do you?

	04-05-2004 06:56									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich You don't know the history of my nick, do you?

Well from what I see today it look like it needs a good editor.