04-05-2004 19:54									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko I don't think that the Democrats are less free trade than the Republicans anymore.

Which party was it that spent a good portion of their primary trashing the people that voted for NAFTA?

	04-05-2004 19:57									#122
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Which party was it that spent a good portion of their primary trashing the people that voted for NAFTA?

All talk (at least from the more serious candidates).

	04-05-2004 19:59									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Why do people keep saying that the republican party isn't one of free trade?

http://www.dailycardinal.com/news/2...de-239773.shtml

	04-05-2004 20:02									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko All talk (at least from the more serious candidates).

You base that on what exactly? John Kerry's sterling talk of free trade thus far?

	04-05-2004 20:03									#125
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http://www.salon.com/books/feature/...cuse/index.html

	04-05-2004 20:03									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If you take the label of republican off the President and he just runs on his record I don't see how anyone would vote for the man. Look at the facts. It says in the bible to judge a man by his deeds.

I agree that you should vote for an individual and not the party... and while you raise a good point, how can anybody vote for Kerry based on his record/deeds

	04-05-2004 20:07									#127
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara http://www.salon.com/books/feature/...cuse/index.html

My guess is that there are small but significant numbers of Bush supporters who are ready to jump ship—fiscal conservatives, military families, diplomatic traditionalists angry about the war. A vote for Kerry will not be easy for them; it will have to be earned. The Senator will have to prove that he is up to the presidency. That will require a largeness of spirit, a well-tempered candor and a political courage that he has not yet demonstrated.

http://www.time.com/time/election20...,612297,00.html

	04-05-2004 20:35									#128
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You base that on what exactly? John Kerry's sterling talk of free trade thus far?

They don't have any real incentive to do much. Organized Labor is the only real democratic constituency that's for protectionism and they're in decline and don't have enough power to give a democratic president the incentive to do much. Of course it would be just like Kerry to be irrational enough to make a big push for protectionism, so you may be right yet DD

Of course, it would be nice if both parties were for real free trade, rather than the BS that gets labeled free trade currently (starting with agricultural subsidies and going from there).

	04-05-2004 20:36									#129
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quote: Why do people keep saying that the republican party isn't one of free trade?

Steel tariffs, anyone?

-Arrian

	04-05-2004 20:43									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If you take the label of republican off the President and he just runs on his record I don't see how anyone would vote for the man. Look at the facts. It says in the bible to judge a man by his deeds.

Exactly why I'm voting for him. He's one of the first Presidents we've makes his decisions in the interest of AMERICA and AMERICANS. Kerry and Clinton made their decisions based on what was better for the world and foreign countries which I really don't give a flip about.

If your a stockholder in General Motors and you've got a CEO (Bush) who maximizes GM's profits versus a CEO candidate (Kerry) who will maximize Ford's profits you vote for the GM guy.

	04-05-2004 22:13									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Steel tariffs, anyone? -Arrian

legal as per the wto,gatt,etc rules regarding dumping.

	04-05-2004 22:15									#132
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Now then, we are running over 500 billion dollars in trade deficits, the President persists in signing new trade deals, the latest of which, cafta, is totally pointless. The entire area has less of a gdp then some cities in the US, AND it is comprised of members who have pulled troops out of Iraq. There is no reason why Bush should support this if he was a protectionist.

	04-05-2004 22:17									#133
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb If your a stockholder in General Motors and you've got a CEO (Bush) who maximizes GM's profits versus a CEO candidate (Kerry) who will maximize Ford's profits you vote for the GM guy.

Bush is the ex-CEO of Adelphia.

	04-05-2004 22:33									#134
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Which party was it that spent a good portion of their primary trashing the people that voted for NAFTA?

You mean the party that nominated by an overwhelming margin a guy who voted for NAFTA and has openly criticized protectionists? Yeah, there's a good argument.

	04-05-2004 22:35									#135
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb If your a stockholder in General Motors and you've got a CEO (Bush) who maximizes GM's profits versus a CEO candidate (Kerry) who will maximize Ford's profits you vote for the GM guy.

So running up the most massive national debt in history is "maximizing profits?" What companies do you invest in? I'd like to know so I can stay far, far away.

	04-05-2004 23:37									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You mean the party that nominated by an overwhelming margin a guy who voted for NAFTA and has openly criticized protectionists? Yeah, there's a good argument.

That's certainly not Kerry. So which party are you talking about?

	04-05-2004 23:47									#137
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 why even bother voting japher? i mean you dont support most if even half of what bush does and you are in a state that wont vote for bush?

Because in everything Bush does wrong, Kerry is as bad or worse (IMO).

	04-05-2004 23:48									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I'm rather schocked Berz would fall into the same logical fallacy of the False Dichotomy.

What false dichotomy? There isn't any viable candidate except Bush or Kerry.

	05-05-2004 00:32									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Because in everything Bush does wrong, Kerry is as bad or worse (IMO).

despite no evidence that is true... id rather give kerry a chance than know that bush will keep on doing the same **** he has been.

i have no problem with you voting for who you want. i do have a problem of you voting for someone who lies to you and you justify it.

	05-05-2004 00:37									#140
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That's certainly not Kerry. So which party are you talking about?

Um, Kerry voted for NAFTA. And he criticised both Dean and Edwards for being too protectionist. See how that works?

	05-05-2004 00:39									#141
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 despite no evidence that is true... id rather give kerry a chance than know that bush will keep on doing the same **** he has been. i have no problem with you voting for who you want. i do have a problem of you voting for someone who lies to you and you justify it.

I'm talking about policy. It's rather difficult to lie about that (at least in a way that actually convinces anyone).

	05-05-2004 00:39									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich What false dichotomy? There isn't any viable candidate except Bush or Kerry.

Nothing in the quote says Wilson is addressing an election issue or comparing the GOP to Democrats. He was just addressing the weaknesses of the Republican Party. That Berz would make that error is doubly ironic, since he's a Libertarian. For all we know, so is Wilson.

	05-05-2004 00:40									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And he criticised both Dean and Edwards for being too protectionist.

Did he now?

Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry said Monday the White House should not have scrapped steep tariffs on foreign-made steel last year..

http://www.freep.com/news/statewire...96_20040405.htm

	05-05-2004 00:40									#144
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The Liberarians aren't one either, because they are far too extreme.

	05-05-2004 00:49									#145
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Did he now? Democratic presidential front-runner John Kerry said Monday the White House should not have scrapped steep tariffs on foreign-made steel last year.. http://www.freep.com/news/statewire...96_20040405.htm

Irrelevant. I never said he wasn't protectionist to some degree, only that he was less protectionist than the Democrats he beat out for the nomination. So clearly economic protectionism isn't the candidate-making issue for the Dems you portrayed it to be.

	05-05-2004 00:51									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich The Liberarians aren't one either, because they are far too extreme.

Damned extreme librarians.

That still isn't the point. Wilson is, again, confining himself to chastising the Republicans. Whining about "Well, the Dems..." etc. is the equivalent to people today excusing Bush's inadequacies by saying, "Well, Clinton did this and that..."

	05-05-2004 01:28									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So clearly economic protectionism isn't the candidate-making issue for the Dems you portrayed it to be.

Of course not.

"We're going to shut down any incentive, any reward or any kind of benefit for any Benedict Arnold company or CEO that takes American jobs overseas and sticks the American people with the bill." - Kerry on outsourcing

	05-05-2004 01:32									#148
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc "We're going to shut down any incentive, any reward or any kind of benefit for any Benedict Arnold company or CEO that takes American jobs overseas and sticks the American people with the bill." - Kerry on outsourcing

I may miss something with the Benedict Arnold reference (which I don't know), but I fail to see what is wrong with suppressing incentives to outsource

	05-05-2004 01:33									#149
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Ben Arnold = famous traitor. Switched sides on us during the Revolutionary War.

-Arrian

	05-05-2004 01:33									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I may miss something with the Benedict Arnold reference (which I don't know), but I fail to see what is wrong with suppressing incentives to outsource

Precisely. Removing incentives (i.e. corporate subsidies) for U.S. companies to truck jobs overseas isn't protectionism, it's just common sense. He's not calling for a prohibition on it, after all.