14-05-2004 22:37									#121
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Here's a good starting place for people with little or no knowledge of military structure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_units

Anybody else with sources should post them.

	14-05-2004 23:21									#122
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Tell me what Trons like
its getting pretty naff reviews and id hoped it would be a decent film

	15-05-2004 05:30									#123
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Troy was better than decent... they stripped it of all those gods running around, and it turned into a pretty good epic about the futility of war, honour and religion. It was fun to watch, too.

	15-05-2004 05:38									#124
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Unless im missing something then it is definately not possible to support a large army by "flying" all food/ammo/medicinal supplies etc via choppers over an ocean to Azan right ? Or by having a personal navy for each small ship would mean having a navy the combined size of every other player present ?

	15-05-2004 05:40									#125
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This is from this btw :

quote:
Originally posted by Lazerus
Ras are you seriously telling me every weapon you fire at me in that city is "presicion guided missile", your country would be bankrupt by now.
No not broke, we have a large bankroll for this kind of thing... But no not all were precision jus tthe ones used over Azan taerritory, all bombs dropped on FCL were regualr bombs.quote:

and yes i am cutting your supply lines, a far easier task then your massive bombing raids
actually no not easier as i dont use merchant ships for supplies, most are flown in via Hercules helicopters or on Naval Ships with full naval suport, we also hav emuch supply from other nations, we are buying supplys on the open market and having them shipped in using their shipping as you obviously only targeting my ships. Thesupplies are shipped into Azan territory then flown into the city .quote:
which i did acknowledge and you keep posting about despite the fact i still consider you wouldnt have more then several hundred aircraft in the area. Now alot less if you've taken "heavy" losses
no i have large squadrons in area, the war we conducted on azan was only a prep for what was to come, we knew once we arrived wither we would face a world coalition or as we ended up doing , facing a evil empire. So the numbers of plane sin area which was built up during the offencive in azan is very large. Additional y we hav ebases in Western apolyton .

Being a small island nation we always ahv ehad many Aircraft carriers as we dont have room on our island for 1.2 Bill people and airports too.

So nealry al lof our Airforce is Located on aircraft carriers.

Now back to you acknowleging my attacks , you havent , not one report on any losses or such. Since you obviously didnt take any losses, none of my ships are sunk either.

Youi will notice when i conduct Dogfights that i post both sides lose planes, althoguh the losses are higher on your side as I am jsut too good !! (just kididng)

	15-05-2004 05:46									#126
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thanks for moving it to this thread, Laz

	15-05-2004 05:52									#127
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1) Ras your country is not rich enough to have every weapon targeted at me inside Azan precision guided, i spend best part of my income on military, twice your budget atleast, and i am certain i wouldnt even come close.

2) As already stated you're an ocean away, choppers cannot fly that far, even if something were invented the fuel consumption as compared to what it could carry would be idiotic.
How big is your navy if everything has full naval support ? you are not a big military power this far from home ! even nations which have confirmed they are mainly seafaring would struggle to guard every transport at a short range.

3) Is anybody mad enough to dock in the port of a city currently under attack just to sell some food ? leaving us with the flying part, they would be slow and easily shot down, if they fly high altitude the supplies would be scattered all over.

4) just how many aircraft are we talking about if nearly all are on carriers ??

5) i'm not a brilliant storyteller as it is so im not going to make crap basic posts saying "we flew into enemy and killed lots, they fly away, we win"

	15-05-2004 05:53									#128
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np joncha, hes entitled to reply to this now and then other ppl will comment so doubt its gonna take up some space

	15-05-2004 05:55									#129
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About Troy : the gods normally increase the sense of valour among the greeks, so it didnt remove this ?
what were the battle scenes like ? most are suggesting they're not as good as LoTR despite just as much being spent, the atmosphere isn't generated and the sieges have been drastically cut back as to not bore modern audiences.

ah well if you enjoyed it i might aswell go see it for myself soon, an excuse for a day off

	15-05-2004 06:10									#130
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I'm about to take off again for an hour, so I won't respond except to say that there's a thread in the OT on Troy:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...30&pagenumber=3

	15-05-2004 06:17									#131
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This reminds me of the way we talk about games, school, women, and sports in the Beyond Alpha Centauri discussion threads.

quote: Originally posted by Squeblish Nef? You're a freakin' Psychotic Dictatorship, man! Live up to your name!

Actually, Karakas is an Inoffensive Centrist Democracy at the moment. I'm working on it, seriously!

	15-05-2004 07:32									#132
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I'm going to have to side with Lazerus on this one. Reliance on air supply (or any other 80s band ) alone is simply not feasible.

On the other side of things, neither is supporting an army of 4 million in the field. China's entire military is only about 750K, and they could only hope to field a fraction of that overseas. The US, for example, has about 135K in Iraq right now.

	15-05-2004 09:57									#133
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jon: IIRC, the PRC had a army of 4 million, but they trimmed it down to 3 million now, and is still cutting down the size. It is entirely possible for the Hive to field a 4 million strong army, but I don't think it's possible to field a 4 million strong army as an invasion force. Not only because that probably mean Hive has another 4 million soldiers at home, but the logistics for such a huge force will be a complete nightmare.

	15-05-2004 10:13									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus 1) Ras your country is not rich enough to have every weapon targeted at me inside Azan precision guided, i spend best part of my income on military, twice your budget atleast, and i am certain i wouldnt even come close.

you are assuming all my suplies coming from auldonina . that not the case, we buy them from any free coutnry and have them ship them in to the Western isles and from their large transport planes and hleicopters running 24 hrs a day. If the israelis cna airlift a whole group of jews from africa to israel the nwe can fly supplies in.

quote: 2) As already stated you're an ocean away, choppers cannot fly that far, even if something were invented the fuel consumption as compared to what it could carry would be idiotic. How big is your navy if everything has full naval support ? you are not a big military power this far from home ! even nations which have confirmed they are mainly seafaring would struggle to guard every transport at a short range.

see above for why it not an ocean away. only a short skip jump from the western isles of azan and also from Western apolyton Region ...

quote: 3) Is anybody mad enough to dock in the port of a city currently under attack just to sell some food ? leaving us with the flying part, they would be slow and easily shot down, if they fly high altitude the supplies would be scattered all over.[/q[ i see no one attacking the other nations in free azan having supply lines so why is this attack addressed at me.... [q] 4) just how many aircraft are we talking about if nearly all are on carriers ??

doesnt matter what number i give you , you will psot you got more...

quote: 5) i'm not a brilliant storyteller as it is so im not going to make crap basic posts saying "we flew into enemy and killed lots, they fly away, we win"

wel lyoudid, you said your undermanned navy jsut attacked merchant shipping with no losses...


Look if no one esle sees my side of things i wil ljust pull out,doesnt bother me whther i play here or not, if my nation which easily matches all other major palyers for military sizer and training then i dont know how else to role play...

So let me know. ... i can easily delete my nation from nation states if it upsets people so much that the Poor Hive is gonig to lose this war !!!!!

	15-05-2004 10:14									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger jon: IIRC, the PRC had a army of 4 million, but they trimmed it down to 3 million now, and is still cutting down the size. It is entirely possible for the Hive to field a 4 million strong army, but I don't think it's possible to field a 4 million strong army as an invasion force. Not only because that probably mean Hive has another 4 million soldiers at home, but the logistics for such a huge force will be a complete nightmare.

Remebering that hive is the invading force here with the locals not too pleased to hav ethem...

but apparently it ok for his forces to have unlimited supply in enemy territory but not ok for my army to gain supply from the friendly Azanis .....

	15-05-2004 10:19									#136
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Sorry, I posted that too quickly... IIRC, the 3 million figure includes as many as 1.5 million reserves and about 1 million security police.

My point still stands: an army of 4 million is possible, but certainly not as an invasion force (although I can see them invading Pavesia with an army that large, had Pave not changed spots, but with an admittedly small navy... sending a force that large to Azan is out of the question).

	15-05-2004 10:21									#137
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cant question the hive, what they say is gospel !!!

all his planes are in azan , 4 million troops there, his entire navy is seeking out my merchant ships...

Does this leave any one else with the idea that the hive is no undefended agaisnt a land invasion !!! with so many other nations around surprising no one taken advantag eof it !!!

	15-05-2004 10:55									#138
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That's not what we're saying, Ras... I've criticised Lazerus a lot already. I've felt he's gone way overboard at times with his SMAC theme. The rest of us are trying to roleplay this as realistically as possible. That means if someone raises a criticism, we try to address it.

I think you can either try to play it realistically (which in this case means acknowledging attacks on your shipping... and, in fact, that you would rely heavily on surface transport) or get into a pointless flame-war with Lazerus.

In terms of the roleplay itself, I think having Auldoninna in the game as an erratic great power adds a lot. It throws off the whole "good vs. evil" dynamic in the FCL/Azan roleplay. You just need to recognise that your nation won't be trusted.

	15-05-2004 11:03									#139
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he stil lhasnt acknowledge my bombing runs so i wont acknowledge his shipping attacks, simple really....

	15-05-2004 11:04									#140
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I thought he did... I'll dig through the thread again.

	15-05-2004 11:06									#141
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if you find it cut and paste his losses ... then il lpost my losses on shipping lines....

	15-05-2004 11:15									#142
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Here's what he said:

quote: "Chairman the reports are greatly exaggerated, only the nation of Auldoninna has dared to attempt a bombing raid against us, most damage was done by incoming cruise missiles, and those are trying to hit specific locations rather then maximum damage. The last bombing raid we succesfully engaged the enemy air force and they fled losing 39 bombers and 12 fighters in the retreat. It is why i believe the other nations are hesitant to attack us."

He didn't post his losses, but he did acknowledge the attack, just as he acknowledged the attack on Tel Azan. His response was to make you look bad in Tel Azan, and to go after your supply lines.

My read of the situation is that you should acknowledge his actions (which you did in Tel Azan, but not in terms of shipping), and then react in turn. Given that you now have the full support and cooperation of the Azanis, I think you are free to walk all over his "small garrison in the city" and wait for a Hive counter-attack.

So post something about your navy's defence of your shipping lanes, and then take care of the Hive in Tel Azan.

	15-05-2004 11:21									#143
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Here's what he said: He didn't post his losses, but he did acknowledge the attack, just as he acknowledged the attack on Tel Azan. His response was to make you look bad in Tel Azan, and to go after your supply lines. My read of the situation is that you should acknowledge his actions (which you did in Tel Azan, but not in terms of shipping), and then react in turn. Given that you now have the full support and cooperation of the Azanis, I think you are free to walk all over his "small garrison in the city" and wait for a Hive counter-attack. So post something about your navy's defence of your shipping lanes, and then take care of the Hive in Tel Azan.

Yes saw that but as he didnt lose anything i felt i am jsutified in not having my shipping hit..

i already posted in thread that all our ships were still avaialbe and that nay ships he hit were obviously his own..


As for tel azan, i was hoping to get a post from azazeal before i complete the pincer movement of his totally unsupplied troops, no ships in ,we control the airport.. !!!!!

	15-05-2004 11:27									#144
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You see, when you react in that way, you don't give anyone a reason to support you. As I said... it just ends up looking like a flame war.

He acknowledged he was attacked, but he just didn't reveal the extent of the damage. Fair enough. All that does is give you a free hand to follow up.

You don't have to say "I lost X number of ships," just acknowledge that his actions had some impact, and move on. Whether he roleplays fairly or not (and right now I think he's doing an ok job of it) is besides the point when it comes to how you roleplay.

	15-05-2004 11:35									#145
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Hard to continue my attacks without confirmation of the success of my attacks on his infrastructure..

but ok , will post about the next stage soon.....

	15-05-2004 12:19									#146
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Hi, sorry I was gone for a day or so. Tel Azan troops ARE supplied, since we've caputured the Tel Azan-Concept Highway (A-6) - (A-50) interchange. ( read war thread )

	15-05-2004 12:20									#147
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well done my great and wndrous ally!!!

	15-05-2004 12:24									#148
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Make that A-99 instead of A-50

	15-05-2004 12:27									#149
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hopefully joncha can post an updated map in his wonderous style soon...

	15-05-2004 14:08									#150
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quote: Originally posted by joncha You see, when you react in that way, you don't give anyone a reason to support you. As I said... it just ends up looking like a flame war. He acknowledged he was attacked, but he just didn't reveal the extent of the damage. Fair enough. All that does is give you a free hand to follow up. You don't have to say "I lost X number of ships," just acknowledge that his actions had some impact, and move on. Whether he roleplays fairly or not (and right now I think he's doing an ok job of it) is besides the point when it comes to how you roleplay.

Thanks, Jon.

Everyone - everyone - even if you're Apolyton's pre-eminent military power - has to be reasonable. You have to have both weaknesses and strengths. You have to take casualties when it is reasonable to take casualties. You have to lose the war, when it is reasonable to lose the war.

I've seen how these things often go. (Ask me about the Pirates in the Chiron Chronicle some time.) And when they go that way, no-one has fun. And you people wouldn't want that, would you?