16-12-2004 15:39									#481
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Lou Wigman OK. here's some more. GAME SPEED The game is VERY slow once you reach the middle ages. Even with the memory leaks and the hard disk whirring away in overdrive the original game was faster. Something has gone awry here. The original specs were 233Mhz. I am running 2.8Ghz. AI turns run at 2+minutes. Way, way too slow. Completely destroys any game continuity. Turning animations off etc. makes no difference. The AI seems to "hang" on certain civs. It is always the same civ that takes forever to complete its turn whilst the others are always pretty quick.

I agree

quote: NAVAL AI This does nothing at all. It used to rip up your fishing nets. Not that I mind since now I can actually build some sea improvements. Still it isn't really very satisfactory.

I am currently working on a underwater fort imp which should allow for more fun underwater.(it’s done I just need to get the tile file working right).

quote: BOMBARDING Bombarding a city should destroy city improvements on a random basis.

What about a spy doing this as well

quote: FASCIST UNIT Fascism is arrived at not long after gunpowder. This leads to the situation of having machine gun equipped infantry in Medieval times.

I had machinegun before gunpowder

quote: SHOPPING MALL Putting a shopping mall in the countryside is absurd. Something else is needed. For example "Market Garden", "Dairy Farm", "Cattle Ranch", "Lumber Mill".

Yes somthing new is needed kind of like a factorey for goods to sell.

quote: ADDITIONAL TILE IMPROVEMENTS At present there are slots for 12 tile improvements. How hard would it be to create some additional ones? Let me suppose that these improvements are in an array with tile[0] being farm. Let us now create a new tile imp in tile[12]. After a suitable trigger tile[12] appears in the slot that "farm" used to occupy. Farms can still exist but you can't build any new ones. Possible? Problem for the AI? Does that matter if we are careful about the extras?

You can do that already.

	16-12-2004 17:00									#482
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Lemmy You kinda already gave a solution, but i'm not sure how feasible it is. The problem is that the city cap is static, so change it to something dynamic or base it on the average number of cities per civ. For example the average number cities per civ is 20 and Democracy gives +20% higher city cap, then the city cap for Democracy at this point would be 20+20% = 24.

But what has 'average number cities per civ' got to do with a single civ's government?

I always liked the idea that ONLY crime would increase for each city that went over the limit. Unhappiness related to distance from capital is still counted but unhappiness from number of cities is too strong and you cant control it at some point or its simply not worth the inefficiency to try and go over the limit too far. If each increase in crime for each city over the limit is small enough (1% ?) it would create a more intuitive feel to expansion, rather than hitting a brick wall at the city cap now.

quote: FASCIST UNIT Fascism is arrived at not long after gunpowder. This leads to the situation of having machine gun equipped infantry in Medieval times.

IIRC Nationalism replaced one of the prerequisites to Fascism in SAP2. These are all something that needs looking at though, the tech tree is borked in various places.

quote: GAME SPEED The game is VERY slow once you reach the middle ages. Even with the memory leaks and the hard disk whirring away in overdrive the original game was faster. Something has gone awry here. The original specs were 233Mhz. I am running 2.8Ghz. AI turns run at 2+minutes. Way, way too slow. Completely destroys any game continuity. Turning animations off etc. makes no difference. The AI seems to "hang" on certain civs. It is always the same civ that takes forever to complete its turn whilst the others are always pretty quick.

Im playing all-land maps at the moment and it runs fine all way. I got about 250 turns into an islands map then gave up.

By the way, why do I get the game waiting for the CD to spin up? I dont have the music on, it waits at all sorts of strange moments like when I click to select a unit or close a manager window, it wont do it every time but maybe every 20mins guessing.

	16-12-2004 20:05									#483
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: GAME SPEED The game is VERY slow once you reach the middle ages. Even with the memory leaks and the hard disk whirring away in overdrive the original game was faster. Something has gone awry here. The original specs were 233Mhz. I am running 2.8Ghz. AI turns run at 2+minutes. Way, way too slow. Completely destroys any game continuity. Turning animations off etc. makes no difference. The AI seems to "hang" on certain civs. It is always the same civ that takes forever to complete its turn whilst the others are always pretty quick.

Not a problem for me, haven't played the latest playtest, but it was very good performance with other builds and the original game.

	16-12-2004 22:18									#484
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Lou Wigman CITY CAP Once you reach your city cap any additional cities become a real problem. If you are in a vicious war then you can't help but acquire some additional ones. We could give the option of destroying the city just captured but that is pretty unrealistic. A possible suggestion is to pinch an idea from Europe Universalis and have an option called "Create Puppet" with suitable diplomatic constraints.

I think most would like to see the enslave city and kill city SLIC put into the main game (including updater too). I think even purists like Tamerlin would accept that though I cant speak for him.

I'd also like to see other city capture options like:

"Independence" which would change ownership to a barbarian civ on capture. Sometimes yu feel like conquering, sometimes you dont.


AND "liberate" where it returns to the civ that first built the city (of cours it should be disabled if you are fighting the civ that first built it)

	16-12-2004 22:41									#485
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I think most would like to see the enslave city and kill city SLIC put into the main game (including updater too). I think even purists like Tamerlin would accept that though I cant speak for him.

I'd only like to see this if the AI did it too, like the aggressive civs always raze the lot, the academics always hold the city. I'd certainly defend my cities then. Although it will reduce the game to one shot kills where you dont need to hold the city to do real damage, you dont even need to starve and disband it.

quote: "liberate" where it returns to the civ that first built the city (of cours it should be disabled if you are fighting the civ that first built it)

But you can already just give it them back as a gift anyway.

	16-12-2004 23:29									#486
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

yes but not if there dead

	17-12-2004 00:19									#487
	Got spare money?

Well then theyre dead for good as far as im concerned.

	17-12-2004 01:24									#488
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Latestest playtest freezes sometimes

	17-12-2004 10:05									#489
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Game speed revisited

This is a very serious problem for me. Other players have also reported it while some don't seem to be affected.

All I can go on is the progress bar that shows when each civ has its turn. This may well be meaningless in which case what I am about to write is nonsense. Then again it may be nonsense anyway.

For each civ the progress bar moves to a certain point where its stops. This point is different for each civ. Moreover the length of time it stops will be different for different civs. However for any given civ the length of time is the same each turn.

My surmise then, is that the AI turn reaches a certain process which it attempts to evaluate but can't. It continues in some sort of iteration until it times out.

I have saved games and reloaded them. This changes nothing. The progress bar still stops at precisely the same point for precisely the same amount of time.

I even turned down hardware acceleration with no effect.

	17-12-2004 10:52									#490
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Lou,

The build you're playing has a bunch of experimental AI stuff by Calvitix (he was working on cross water invasions). Evidently this is slowing the game down and we'll have to clean it up for the next one.

	17-12-2004 11:11									#491
	Remove this text

Thanks for the info Peter.

What I wrote is wrong anyway. The progress bar "builds" with each civ. So civ1 takes the bar 1/n part of the way. The next civ then has it's go and the bar changes colour to 2/n part of the way etc.

	18-12-2004 03:36									#492
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Lou Wigman CTD Start a new game. Now either select "Options" "New Game" or "Restart". Repeat a few times and it will crash. The crash occurs whilst "loading" the new game. The number of "tries" varies somewhat but it will eventually crash.

Do you have a generated crash log for this situation? I have tried to reproduce the crash with my current build, but was unable to.

	18-12-2004 03:45									#493
	Tired of ads?

Well I think I encountered the problem as well, well maybe it is the same problem but I have a crash.txt of such an problem:

code:

  0x7800d203  [__onexitbegin + 0x7741ae2b]
  0x7800cc3f  [__onexitbegin + 0x7741a867]
  0x0040213e  [??3@YAXPAX@Z + 0x15]
  0x0047f9f2  [??_GStringRecord@@QAEPAXI@Z + 0x22]
  0x0047f041  [??1StringDB@@QAE@XZ + 0x4a]
  0x0041102f  [??_GStringDB@@QAEPAXI@Z + 0xf]
  0x0040d2b0  [?CleanupAppDB@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0xae5]
  0x0040fa00  [?LoadSavedGame@CivApp@@QAEJPAD@Z + 0x10e]
  0x004106da  [? Execute@LoadSaveGameAction@@UAAXPAVaui_Control@@KK
@Z + 0x15]
  0x0068314c  [?HandleActions@aui_UI@@QAEXXZ + 0x60]
  0x006830d6  [?Process@aui_UI@@UAE?AW4AUI_ERRCODE@@XZ + 0x47]
  0x0040f3c5  [?ProcessUI@CivApp@@QAEJKAAK@Z + 0x200]
  0x0040f71b  [?Process@CivApp@@QAEJXZ + 0xa7]
  0x00407f3d  [?CivWinMain@@YGHPAUHINSTANCE__@@0PADH@Z + 0x3ca]
  0x004079ee  [WinMain@16 + 0x74]
  0x00860e4c  [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x134]
  0xbff8b560  [(kernel) + 0x0]

	18-12-2004 03:55									#494
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Here is the last crash report. I get various crashes from time to time. I hope it is the right one. I'll keep an eye on it and post any relevant reports.

Attachment: crash.txt
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	18-12-2004 04:13									#495
	Full PM-box? Change here!

OK. I just tried it again. Just reloading repeatedly doesn't cause a crash. You actually have to do something before restarting. Move a unit, adjust some sliders etc.

Just did that and here is the crash report.

0x006d8cb3 [?InitStrategicState@Diplomat@@QAEXXZ + 0x23]
0x0040cb47 [? c3debug_ExceptionStackTrace@@YAPADPAU_EXCEPTION_PO
INTERS@@@Z + 0x47]
0x0073092f [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x191]
0x77e814c7 [__onexitbegin + 0x773e49cf]


I just repeated it.
Start a new game. Move the settler until the turn auto-ends. Start a new game. CRASH.

0x006d8cb3 [?InitStrategicState@Diplomat@@QAEXXZ + 0x23]
0x0040cb47 [? c3debug_ExceptionStackTrace@@YAPADPAU_EXCEPTION_PO
INTERS@@@Z + 0x47]
0x0073092f [WinMainCRTStartup + 0x191]
0x77e814c7 [__onexitbegin + 0x773e49cf]

same report I think.

EDIT
You have to let the AI have its turn to get the crash.

Last edited by Lou Wigman on 18-12-2004 at 04:23

	19-12-2004 15:55									#496
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Stupid DP.

Last edited by Tamerlin on 19-12-2004 at 16:08

	19-12-2004 16:06									#497
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by E I think most would like to see the enslave city and kill city SLIC put into the main game (including updater too). I think even purists like Tamerlin would accept that though I cant speak for him.

Yes, I agree with you.

As far as I am concerned, I consider the SAP2 to be something like the real original game. The Updater2 is, of course, a mod I would like to see in the Apolyton Edition.

Most of the things I don't like when people are speaking about adding new things are those that are changing the scope of the game. CtP2 appeals to me because it has a perfect balance between macromanagement and micromanagement and because it is really a strategic level game. If we compare CtP2 with Civ3, most of us consider there is too much micromanagement in Civ3, it does not suit most of us because there are things that we should not have to manage in a strategy game (workers, assigning a citizen to a specific square, unit by unit combat, unit by unit movement).

But though I don't agree with many proposals (especially those coming from Civ3), this is just a point view and the only thing I am actually looking for is an Apolyton Edition that would be as close as possible to the original game (and/or the SAP2) with as little changes as needed as far as the gameplay is concerned. For example, strengthening the AI is necessary but I would like it to cheat as less as possible as it is a major spoiler as far as I am concerned.

Another possibility would be to implement changes as options you can select when you are configuring your game. I don't know at all if this is difficult or not but I think that it would be great.

quote: I'd also like to see other city capture options like: "Independence" which would change ownership to a barbarian civ on capture. Sometimes yu feel like conquering, sometimes you dont. AND "liberate" where it returns to the civ that first built the city (of cours it should be disabled if you are fighting the civ that first built it)

That is the kind of things that I agree with.

	20-12-2004 03:02									#498
	Remove this text

Create puppet

I still like this idea and it wouldn't be that difficult to implement.

Create an new civ using one of your cities. This cannot be done at this point.

However I think it is possible to give a civ any of your cities through normal diplomacy. If not this can easily be done since it just about there anyway.

So there should not be much of a problem about creating a new civ from unwanted cities.

The next issue is to force the new civ to be subservient. This needs a special form of alliance with the following additional rules

* The puppet cannot break the alliance.
* The controlling power can release the puppet.
* If the puppet is attacked and the controlling civ does not go to war the puppet breaks free.

Up for grabs:
Should the puppet be allowed to attack another civ in its own right?

	20-12-2004 04:12									#499
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

NO not on its own however

3 way diplomacy could be good where you ask (tell) the puppet to trade technologies with a civ you are at war with.

Or tell the puppet declare war and back them up with your troops to avoid your cities being damaged then demand cities the puppet captures.

	20-12-2004 18:14									#500
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've been trying out a few things this morning.

Playtest build: 14/09/2004 - with the new Apolyton title screen(the brown one).

PC: PII 500 128MB ram.

I ran a few start up games to see if i could get the 'stuck on ai turn' bug thing.
All games were of a standard one player type on huge map with 8 Ai.
The only thing i changed was the map layout as follows:

game1: all map functions dead centre

I did have some islands(i was on one).Played through to 1AD.

I restarted a new game with these map settings 3 times but didnt play as long(maybe 30 turns each).

No Ai stuck bugs


game2: max Island, max sea

many islands(mine was about 15 tiles total).Played through to 500BC.

tried this map setting two other times, was expecting to get the bug cause of all the Islands but didn't see it.

No Ai stuck bug.


game3: min Island, max Continent

this was just a desperate attempt to trick the AI
I played two games on this setting, and as expected -

No Ai stuck bug.

So even though i've had the bug before, i couldn't seem to get it today?? strange for sure.

	20-12-2004 22:04									#501
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

500th post of this thread... I'll post some comments in the new one

	20-12-2004 22:06									#502
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora 500th post of this thread... I'll post some comments in the new one

It seems that the next title will be PROJECT: Maquiladora's Playtest III.

	21-12-2004 00:04									#503
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And of course we shouldn't forget to provide a link to the new one. And vice versa.

-Martin