21-05-2004 05:44									#91
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have no fashion taste, I'm a clothing utilitarian.

	21-05-2004 05:47									#92
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus When I said maybe you should also I meant that you should speak to the black kids when you see the crass behavior.

Erm, no thank you. These fellows usually look like they'd not be pleased with having their manners corrected in public. Besides, unless they are specifically harrassing someone, they're allowed to behave as they please. And I'm allowed to ignore them.

	21-05-2004 14:22									#93
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am not the most socially sensitive person you will ever meet - social undercurrents which would be blatantly obvious to most regularly pass me by.

And sexual preference is one of the things I often just don't pick up on.

There have been several people whom I have known for years and then felt quite surprised when someone told me they are gay.

But I move in rather restrained social circles where flamboyant behaviour from almost anybody - gay or straight - is rare.

But I used slightly to share your prejudice when, thirty years or so back and more, the standard portrayal in film or book of a homosexual was of someone camping it up, addressing everyone as "dear", mincing along rather than walking and flaunting absurdly ill fitting women's clothing most of the time.

I do not think I have met a single person in real life who affects any of these things.

There is a new sort of affectation emerging on the internet. Among kids of 11 to about 15 homosexual innuendo is becoming about the commonest sort of banter. Almost none of the children say anything which makes you think they are actually homosexual so quite why homosexual eroticism should figure in their chat so freely I can't really imagine. It can be quite unattractive, though.

	21-05-2004 15:04									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader There is a new sort of affectation emerging on the internet. Among kids of 11 to about 15 homosexual innuendo is becoming about the commonest sort of banter. Almost none of the children say anything which makes you think they are actually homosexual so quite why homosexual eroticism should figure in their chat so freely I can't really imagine. It can be quite unattractive, though.

It might have to do with the fact that most people in their teens are insecure about their sexuality and in most cases interested in both sexes, because sexual identity isn't as established in that age...

Considering girls of that age live in another world and boys are around other boys all the time, it is only natural their banter would have sexual over- and undertones - it is their only way to address their emerging sexuality. At least in my childhood that was the case, though my friends turned out to be straight while I'm gay myself.

	21-05-2004 15:16									#95
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

"Some gays act feminine because that is part of who they really are."

	21-05-2004 15:34									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ah, Stew the philanthropist has arrived

	21-05-2004 15:52									#97
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MrFun I find positive stereotypes of gays bothersome too.

Ooooo, I actually agree with Mr Fun about something

	21-05-2004 17:42									#98
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader There is a new sort of affectation emerging on the internet. Among kids of 11 to about 15 homosexual innuendo is becoming about the commonest sort of banter. Almost none of the children say anything which makes you think they are actually homosexual so quite why homosexual eroticism should figure in their chat so freely I can't really imagine. It can be quite unattractive, though.

Maybe you're just not up on modern teen culture, but when I was in high school and college, homosexual innuendo was extremely common. Guys were always engaged in such banter, but the tone (which is hard to guage in chat) wasn't what you think--there was a mockery and menace to it (at least, that's how it seemed to a gay kid at the time).

	21-05-2004 18:15									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

"Gay" is like the most used insult now isn't it.

	21-05-2004 18:19									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Try and convince Agathon and Drake of that.

	21-05-2004 18:24									#101
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What Boris? It's hardly a compliment.

	21-05-2004 18:25									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'm well aware of that, thank you. But Aggie and Drake tried to convince us that when people used "gay" as an insult, it had no connection to homosexuals. It was one of the most ludicrous stretches of logic I've seen 'round these parts.

	21-05-2004 18:26									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Actually a lot of times it really isn't.

	21-05-2004 18:27									#104
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well it doesn't really. It's just gay as a negative description kind of things. Homosexuals shouldn't be bothered really, they can just carry on.

	21-05-2004 18:28									#105
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Then what is it if it isn't an insult?

	21-05-2004 18:40									#106
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually a lot of times it really isn't.

Now it's a triumvirate of apologists.

So how is saying that someone who is stingy is a "Jew" not an insult to Jewish people?

	21-05-2004 18:45									#107
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

But a lot of times you aren't saying it to people who exibit homosexual characteristics. Like saying, 'don't be gay and take the last soda'. What stereotype does that fit in?

If you call people a "Jew" for anything as a generic insult (like some people I knew in high school) then I'd say it has nothing to do with Judaism. I mean you aren't saying "don't be a member of Jewish religion".

	21-05-2004 18:50									#108
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But a lot of times you aren't saying it to people who exibit homosexual characteristics. Like saying, 'don't be gay and take the last soda'. What stereotype does that fit in?

Um, it's not about stereotyping, it's about using a group's name as a negative epithet. How is that not insulting to that group?

quote: If you call people a "Jew" for anything as a generic insult (like some people I knew in high school) then I'd say it has nothing to do with Judaism. I mean you aren't saying "don't be a member of Jewish religion".

Don't you see how that is still insulting to Jewish people, using their group name as synonymous with a negative term?

Claiming otherwise is patently disingenuous and just a means of excusing the continued use of slurs against groups in a "stealth" manner.

	21-05-2004 19:13									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But a lot of times you aren't saying it to people who exibit homosexual characteristics. Like saying, 'don't be gay and take the last soda'. What stereotype does that fit in?

The word is derived from meaning homosexual, the fact that society has tolerated it -- and even embraced it -- to be a generic insult is even more insulting.

Something tells me you would not be so agreeable if people said "don't be a paki and take the last soda".

	21-05-2004 19:14									#110
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Some gays act feminine because that is part of who they really are."

I'm not surprised that you would not understand that.

	21-05-2004 19:16									#111
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But a lot of times you aren't saying it to people who exibit homosexual characteristics. Like saying, 'don't be gay and take the last soda'. What stereotype does that fit in? If you call people a "Jew" for anything as a generic insult (like some people I knew in high school) then I'd say it has nothing to do with Judaism. I mean you aren't saying "don't be a member of Jewish religion".

Imran, you're one of the more intelligent posters on here, so I'm thinking once you're informed about something you know little about, you won't cling onto such misnomers.

Using racial, religious, or sex orientation slurs as negative insults -- even when they do not necessarily involve stereotyping is deragatory towards that particular minority group.

	21-05-2004 19:25									#112
	Remove this text

Using a word that is considered to describe a group in a negative manner cannot only be damaging to that group but could in time associate that group with the insult you refered to. I.E. if enough people start to believe it becomes true. I'm sure that most stereotypes starting out as opinions of single individuals and grew with time.

	21-05-2004 21:11									#113
	Get a bigger avatar today!

"Um, it's not about stereotyping, it's about using a group's name as a negative epithet. How is that not insulting to that group?"

In that case, and if it is widely understood as an insult, then there must be something wrong that that particular group must be doing in order for their main characteristic to be synonomous with an insult.

Anyway this discussion is just gay.

	21-05-2004 21:38									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue In that case, and if it is widely understood as an insult, then there must be something wrong that that particular group must be doing in order for their main characteristic to be synonomous with an insult.

Yeah, I'm sure that all minority groups have earned their negative epithets and slurs because of their doing something wrong. Couldn't possibly be because others can be ignorant or bigots, now could it?

	21-05-2004 23:07									#115
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Using racial, religious, or sex orientation slurs as negative insults -- even when they do not necessarily involve stereotyping is deragatory towards that particular minority group.

You mean like 'nigger' .

quote: Something tells me you would not be so agreeable if people said "don't be a paki and take the last soda".

I never beat up any of my friends who said that (well, "Don't be such a Paki..." don't know if it was ever about the last Soda ).

	21-05-2004 23:15									#116
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I never beat up any of my friends who said that (well, "Don't be such a Paki..." don't know if it was ever about the last Soda ).

I've never beat up any of my friends for calling things gay either, and that wasn't the idea behind my statement, and I'm sure you know it.

Would you not be the least insulted if the world used "Paki" as the next universal insult?

	21-05-2004 23:19									#117
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nope, not at all. I have thicker skin that other minority members, I guess .

In fact it probably deserves to be the next universal insult.

	21-05-2004 23:21									#118
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm sorry, but I find it REALLY hard to believe that it wouldn't offend you if:

• White christians constantly protested the right for pakistanis to adopt children
  
• White christians constantly protested the right for pakistanis to marry
  
• People used 'paki' as a general insult

	21-05-2004 23:39									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Where did #1 and #2 come into this discussion? Is this the patented Asher trick (TM) of talking about one specific thing and then strawmanning out into saying the other person believes things that they haven't been talking about!!

We were talking about #3. Stick to the topic, foo!

	21-05-2004 23:43									#120
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

#1 and #2 set the preconditions necessary for #3's effect, giving your minority the feel of second-class citizenship status on top of using your minority as a generic insult.