22-05-2004 00:01									#121
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No, #1 and #2 are not preconditions for #3's effect. Have Jews suffered from #1 and #2? Are Jews today aren't second-class citizens? No.. so does that mean you'd be for saying "Don't be a Jew" since they never suffered from not being able to adopt nor from not marrying? Somehow I don't think so, since you object so strongly to the "Don't be gay" thing.

Don't be dense, Asher. You were trying to sneak strawmen in, like you usually do. This conversation is about whether calling something 'gay' is too offensive to be used, the marriage stuff figures into none of it.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 22-05-2004 at 00:07

	22-05-2004 00:06									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Don't be dense, Asher. You were trying to sneak strawmen in, like you usually do. This conversation is about whether calling something 'gay' is too offensive to be used, the marriage stuff figures into none of it.

So you don't think having the whole of society exclude you from major parts of society, and then using your minority as a generalized insult does not add "insult to injury", and you can completely seperate them?

It's one thing to have people use your sexual orientation was an insult, and it's even worse when they deny you rights that others enjoy. You cannot honestly say it has nothing to do with someone's sexual orientation, even if you say "this popcorn is gay'. Unless, of course, you're really that dense.

To me it's all the same, they're all just constant reminders that we're different and will have to deal with varying levels of hostility from society. Forbid marriage, call everything gay, same difference to me -- usually same people, too.

I'm not saying you said anything about marriage, so I don't know why you think it's a strawman. Perhaps I'm too expectant of people's intelligence here, and would figure they would know enough already to put themselves in somebody else's shoes when dealing with issues like this, but apparently I still need to hold their hands, even if they do cry about it and mislabel it as a strawman.

	22-05-2004 00:09									#123
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quote: So you don't think having the whole of society exclude you from major parts of society, and then using your minority as a generalized insult does not add "insult to injury", and you can completely seperate them?

Yes, you can seperate them. You didn't answer my first part. Are Jews excluded from major parts of society? Do you believe that "Don't be a Jew" is ok, while "Don't be gay" isn't?

quote: You cannot honestly say it has nothing to do with someone's sexual orientation, even if you say "this popcorn is gay'.

Is my popcorn homosexual? Does it have sex with other popcorn? So how does it have anything to do with sexual orientation?

	22-05-2004 00:19									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, you can seperate them. You didn't answer my first part. Are Jews excluded from major parts of society? Do you believe that "Don't be a Jew" is ok, while "Don't be gay" isn't?

Speaking of strawmen...

Of course it's not okay.

quote: Is my popcorn homosexual? Does it have sex with other popcorn? So how does it have anything to do with sexual orientation?

I honestly can't believe you would accuse me of being dense.

I'll help you out here:

Gay -> sexual orientation that is mainly disapproved of, ESPECIALLY in areas like public schoosl where the use of "gay" as an insult is most predominant

It started many, many years ago as saying "soandso is gay". It became so ubiquitous that it's now a universal insult. This is gay, that is gay... it all comes back to being a slag to homosexuals.

And as a homosexual, I will tell you point blank: that's what I know it comes from.

As a homosexual who grew up through public school systems through constant use of the word "gay" among the peers, I can tell you that you know it contributes to an already rather hostile environment towards gays, and you definitely get the impression that "gay" = bad. Your self-esteem falls, your sense of self-worth disappears, and your anxiety levels go through the roof.

And all because of certain unnamed morons who can't figure out what calling things "gay" has to do with the sexuality.

The whole marriage/social preconditions thing was a hopeless hand-holding exercise for you, because it was clear you lack the ability to be sensitive without it. Though, apparently that doesn't help, either.

I feel sorry for your future clients, I really do.

	22-05-2004 00:24									#125
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Imran is a stupid Paki.

This thread is gay..


I hope I am not too jew about it.

	22-05-2004 00:25									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Imran is a stupid Paki. This thread is gay.. I hope I am not too jew about it.

Go back to Russia you drunkard.

	22-05-2004 00:28									#127
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Shuddup, Calgary flamer.

	22-05-2004 00:30									#128
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quote: Speaking of strawmen... Of course it's not okay.

How is it a strawman, when I never said that was your position. Saying it is not ok bolsters my position... duh.

You have the logic skills of a gnat.

quote: And all because of certain unnamed morons who can't figure out what calling things "gay" has to do with the sexuality.

So you admit that that when people call something 'gay', they aren't thinking about sexuality! Wonderful! In fact, it is to the point today that has nothing to do with sexuality. You said yourself that some of your friends say X is so gay in front of you. Were they trying to make you mad? No... probably not.

quote: Imran is a stupid Paki. This thread is gay.. I hope I am not too jew about it.

	22-05-2004 00:33									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How is it a strawman, when I never said that was your position. Saying it is not ok bolsters my position... duh. You have the logic skills of a gnat.

It does no such thing, I've no idea what you're on.

quote: So you admit that that when people call something 'gay', they aren't thinking about sexuality! Wonderful! In fact, it is to the point today that has nothing to do with sexuality.

You say I have the logic skills of a gnat? Just because they're not thinkign specifically of the sexuality when they call inanimate objects gay (duh...) doesn't mean it has nothing to do with the sexuality.

The name of the sexuality is being used as an insult, equating it to bad. It doesn't matter what the hell the moron using it was thinking, because the effect (especially to gay people), is an insult againsts their sexuality -- period.

Get it?

	22-05-2004 00:40									#130
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I must say that, generally, I agree with Asher. That stuff implies gay=bad. I mean, *I* grew through all of school, calling people fags. First, I didn't know what it meant, then I did, sort of, and then, it just was a power of a habit, though I knew it was wrong, in my own mind. Homophobic habits ARE rampant in highscools, and one can speak against it only with good friends, when the issue comes up.

	22-05-2004 00:41									#131
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quote: It does no such thing, I've no idea what you're on.

Of course it does. That means that you think that you don't have be a "second-class citizen" to be offended by "Don't be a ____ "

quote: The name of the sexuality is being used as an insult, equating it to bad. It doesn't matter what the hell the moron using it was thinking, because the effect (especially to gay people), is an insult againsts their sexuality -- period.

Of course it matters what the person was thinking! The whole idea of an involuntary insult is silly. To be a real insult, the person should be attempting to make the insult. People are too insulted over things not intended as such... they take themselves way too seriously.

	22-05-2004 00:42									#132
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I can't believe you're such a shallow thinker, Imran.

You wouldn't be able to cut it in anything requiring real thinking, like the sciences.

	22-05-2004 00:43									#133
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quote: That stuff implies gay=bad. I mean, *I* grew through all of school, calling people fags. First, I didn't know what it meant, then I did, sort of, and then, it just was a power of a habit, though I knew it was wrong, in my own mind. Homophobic habits ARE rampant in highscools, and one can speak against it only with good friends, when the issue comes up.

So what do you do when a gay person says "that's gay"? Or doesn't care when people around him do so? I have a very good gay friend who says "that's gay" more than I do (I hardly say it)!

	22-05-2004 00:44									#134
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quote: You wouldn't be able to cut it in anything requiring real thinking, like the sciences.

What do you have to do with the sciences?

	22-05-2004 00:44									#135
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Yes Asher... cause when you get schooled in philosophy debates with Agathon, I think... oooh, there goes a real thinker, who was just whooped by a non-real thinker!

	22-05-2004 00:45									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes Asher... cause when you get schooled in philosophy debates with Agathon, I think... oooh, there goes a real thinker, who was just whooped by a non-real thinker!

Agathon's pretty dense and shallow, too. Even you know that, when he debates anything but philosophy/artsy crap. But you're similarly in the philosophy/artsy crap, so you've no idea that he loses there, too.

In fact, you're all so dense that you can't see the obvious most of the time. Then since you all agree, you all think you're right.

You're not.

	22-05-2004 00:48									#137
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Of course we are all right. When everyone agrees except you, Occam's Razor says we should credit everyone else .

Besides, what is 'truth' is a democratic exercise ('cause there is no absolute truth). If a great majority believes something is 'correct', then it is.

	22-05-2004 00:49									#138
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quote: So what do you do when a gay person says "that's gay"? Or doesn't care when people around him do so? I have a very good gay friend who says "that's gay" more than I do (I hardly say it)!

We don't have the parallel of that in Hebrew. ( describing things as 'gay', that is )

	22-05-2004 00:51									#139
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There is no truth in democratic exercise, nor is there much use. If the great majority believes something is 'correct', we'd still have slavery, blah blah blah.

I digress. Social sciences are a crock, and evidently the people who study them are full of sh*t as well, lacking the most basic reasoning abilities. It's rather unnerving, considering most of them run the countries -- then again, why else is government such an inefficient mess? Because it's full of social science retards.

	22-05-2004 00:53									#140
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Technocracy.

	22-05-2004 00:54									#141
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We're pretty close to having The Matrix ready for production release 1.0.

	22-05-2004 00:54									#142
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What are we on about now? So do we conclude that calling things gay is a damn good way of showing you don't like them?

	22-05-2004 00:54									#143
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quote: If the great majority believes something is 'correct', we'd still have slavery, blah blah blah.

Not really (slavery was on its way out in the public opinion as well, except for some powerful plantation owners)... but going with this, if the great majority believed slavery was correct, then it would be. It was in the 1800.

quote: Social sciences are a crock, and evidently the people who study them are full of sh*t as well, lacking the most basic reasoning abilities.

It must really KILL you then when Agathon runs loops around in basic reasoning .

quote: then again, why else is government such an inefficient mess?

Mostly because it is realized by social science people that you must TALK to other people, and that results in compromise, which is inefficient. Engineers (and plenty of hard science yokels), being anti-social twits, can't function where they may have to say something to a real live person.

	22-05-2004 00:57									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Not really... but going with this, if the great majority believed slavery was correct, then it would be. It was in the 1800.

Nonsense, because it's clearly all relative, and therefore correct is not an apt description.

Accepted is not synonymous with correct.

quote: It must really KILL you then when Agathon runs loops around in basic reasoning .

Wouldn't know, he's never done it.

quote: Mostly because it is realized by social science people that you must TALK to other people, and that results in compromise, which is inefficient. Engineers (and plenty of hard science yokels), being anti-social twits, can't function where they may have to say something to a real live person.

Many of them are, which gives me an easy path up into management positions very quickly. And since I have a real degree and a real education with real use, I'm far more effective than the social science geeks who incorrectly use words like "correct".

	22-05-2004 01:00									#145
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You don't get many geeks in social sciences. Maybe in politics, but not in the rest.

And if you're wodnering why I'm in on a Friday night, I have an exam tomorrow at 9:30

	22-05-2004 01:01									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue You don't get many geeks in social sciences. Maybe in politics, but not in the rest.

That's because in order to be a geek, you need to be intelligent.

quote: And if you're wodnering why I'm in on a Friday night, I have an exam tomorrow at 9:30

And because you couldn't get laid, again.

	22-05-2004 01:04									#147
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This is getting really funny

	22-05-2004 01:07									#148
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quote: because it's clearly all relative, and therefore correct is not an apt description.

Of course it is! If a great majority believe something is correct then it is. Like if a great majority believe something is true, then it is. 'Correct' and 'Truth' have been misinterpreted as objective statements. They aren't, they are subjective statements, and whether they fit depends on how many people use them.

	22-05-2004 01:12									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course it is! If a great majority believe something is correct then it is. Like if a great majority believe something is true, then it is. 'Correct' and 'Truth' have been misinterpreted as objective statements. They aren't, they are subjective statements, and whether they fit depends on how many people use them.

Is 1+1=2 accepted or is it correct?

If correct, is it objectively correct or subjectively correct?

	22-05-2004 01:15									#150
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Both. It is accepted by most in the internal point of view, and since it is accepted it is correct.

It is subjectively correct, because it is only based on our perceptions and ways of looking at things. Apparently, in a prior thread, there was discussion about some forms of mathematics in with 1+1=0. And of course there is the question of whether what we percieve is what everything else percieves.