03-06-2004 01:29									#481
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Notice "out and out battle".

what was not "out and out" about Endor? The bears attacked openly-it wasn;t a guerrilla battle, it was open warfare. How come the empire could not bring in a few TIE bombers? Were is the indirect firepower? And you know what, the empire decided to chase the bears into the forest instead of just fletnning it with their OH so mighty firpower.

One question, why are imperial blasters so puny? Phasers on full power disintegrate a person-a blaster leaves a small smoking bit on the skin-huge difference.

	03-06-2004 01:56									#482
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quote: Plus, an ISD has a crew of over 40,000 - including 9,000 stormtroopers.

A. And ISD is only half the size of a Cube or Tactical Cube.

B. The number of drones on a Cube are 64,000 to 129,000 (Voy Unimatrix Zero, Voy Dark Frontier).

So Cubes are bigger, have more troops aboard, can regenerate themselves, can adapt to enemy fire, can open Transwarp Conduits (thus flying a LOT faster than SW ships flying in Hyperspace). I don't think The Empire can really stand up to them. Imagine the horror though...if the Borg assimilate the Empire, they'll be unstopable.

	03-06-2004 02:52									#483
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quote: Originally posted by GePap what was not "out and out" about Endor? The bears attacked openly-it wasn;t a guerrilla battle, it was open warfare.

Of course it was guerilla warfare - what did it look like to you?

quote: How come the empire could not bring in a few TIE bombers? Were is the indirect firepower? And you know what, the empire decided to chase the bears into the forest instead of just fletnning it with their OH so mighty firpower.

In case you didn't, there was a space battle going on, so they couldn't exactly lower the Death Star shield.

quote: One question, why are imperial blasters so puny? Phasers on full power disintegrate a person-a blaster leaves a small smoking bit on the skin-huge difference.

Why would they bother to set their blasters to full power, if a much lower setting is enough?

	03-06-2004 02:57									#484
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus The Borg, AFTER the loss of their upper echelon (in First Contact), wasn't gone yet. It didn't fall, and re-emerced more powerful than before.

How was the Queen their "upper echelon"? They don't just have one Cube...

quote: Borg Drones are vastly superior too. Within a few shots, they'll have adapted to Storm Trooper rifles, and will begin assimilating one by one.

As I've mentioned before, they can only adapt to so much firepower. Given the superiority in this category of Imperial space weapons, it seems reasonable to assume their ground weapons would be of similar quality. E-Webs and AT-ST's, anyone?

Besides which, the SW blasters fire plasma, which we know the Borg can't defend against - they have no KE shields, and the Borg Queen in FC died from exposure to plasma coolant.

	03-06-2004 02:57									#485
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich In an out and out battle, the Empire completely owns everyone. Like Hoth.

The Rebels won Hoth. Most of them escaped. So again the Empire sucks.

	03-06-2004 02:58									#486
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quote: So Cubes are bigger

And yet are weaker in space combat - what does that say about their technology?

quote: have more troops aboard

They never seem to use all of them, do they? Surely they would have had an easier time assimilating Enterprise...

quote: can regenerate themselves

So can ISD's. It's called repair.

quote: can adapt to enemy fire

Doesn't do all that much, considering that Enterprise and Voyager's weak weapons can still overcome it...

quote: can open Transwarp Conduits (thus flying a LOT faster than SW ships flying in Hyperspace)

False:

quote: No, transwarp ships can be detected approaching with 200,000c subspace sensors. This is impossible if they are exceeding 200,000c, so transwarp is obviously slower than 200,000c.

	03-06-2004 02:59									#487
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The Rebels won Hoth. Most of them escaped. So again the Empire sucks.

The Rebels had a horrible defeat at Hoth. They lost a huge number of transports and they were crushed in the battle. At least, all of the books described it as a defeat.

	03-06-2004 02:59									#488
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first-grade playground argument:


My ship is better than your ship!

	03-06-2004 03:01									#489
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Duh. How could an ISD not be the most incredibly cool ship ever conceived? ST ships are ugly. An ISD looks deadly.

	03-06-2004 03:04									#490
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich The Rebels had a horrible defeat at Hoth.

The primary objectives of the battle from the Empire's point of view were not met. Therefore I fail to see how the battle can be meaningfully described as an overwhelming victory on the part of the Empire for that reason and especially since so many of the Rebellion leaders escaped from within view of an ISD.

	03-06-2004 03:22									#491
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Duh. How could an ISD not be the most incredibly cool ship ever conceived? ST ships are ugly. An ISD looks deadly.

It looks like a moldy slice of cheese.


Federation ships, on the other hand, are usually quite graceful.

	03-06-2004 04:23									#492
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A metagenic weapon dropped on this thread would end this rediculous STvsSW debate quite nicely.

	03-06-2004 04:51									#493
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The primary objectives of the battle from the Empire's point of view were not met. Therefore I fail to see how the battle can be meaningfully described as an overwhelming victory on the part of the Empire for that reason and especially since so many of the Rebellion leaders escaped from within view of an ISD.

From a purely military point of view it was a success, the Rebel command post on Hoth was destroyed, and several transports carrying thousands of rebels were interdicted.

From a Political Standpoint? All the big players, Rieeken, Leia Organa, Antilles, and the Heros Luke Skywalker and Han Solo all escaped, giving the Alliance people to rally behind.

If only Admiral Needa wasn't as clumsy as he was stupid.

	03-06-2004 07:46									#494
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The primary objectives of the battle from the Empire's point of view were not met. Therefore I fail to see how the battle can be meaningfully described as an overwhelming victory on the part of the Empire for that reason and especially since so many of the Rebellion leaders escaped from within view of an ISD.

It wasn't an "overwhelming victory" for the Empire, it was a crushing defeat for the Rebellion. Different things. They lost a lot of people there.

	03-06-2004 07:47									#495
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It looks like a moldy slice of cheese. Federation ships, on the other hand, are usually quite graceful.

Like Enterprise during most of the last season?

	03-06-2004 07:56									#496
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He said Federation ships.

	03-06-2004 07:59									#497
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Close enough...

Anyway, ST ships have some of the worst possible designs for warships. Long, thin struts connecting long, thin nacelles to a saucer-shaped thing? I'm surprised the thing doesn't fall apart just flying normally.

	03-06-2004 08:09									#498
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus A. And ISD is only half the size of a Cube or Tactical Cube. B. The number of drones on a Cube are 64,000 to 129,000 (Voy Unimatrix Zero, Voy Dark Frontier). So Cubes are bigger, have more troops aboard, can regenerate themselves, can adapt to enemy fire, can open Transwarp Conduits (thus flying a LOT faster than SW ships flying in Hyperspace). I don't think The Empire can really stand up to them. Imagine the horror though...if the Borg assimilate the Empire, they'll be unstopable.

But would the Borg bother to assimilate the empire? Aren't the storm troopers just left over clone troopers? Where's the genetic diversity in that to add to the collective? What would be thepoint of assimilating teddy bears, giant slugs, and squid people? Face it, the Borg would hand pick a couple dozen specimens then level the whole galaxy.

Assimilating the Jedi OTOH would be well worth their time. Imagine whole Borg cubes with Jedi knight powers. They could probably collectively focus their powers into enormous blasts of force energy, or even assimilate whole planets at a distance. Imagine massive cubes populated by ewok teddy bears trained in both the light and the dark force powers gobbling up entire galaxies using nothing but sheer will power. Imagine them invading your home town in neatly arranged columns, moving in synchrony in a crisp but lurching march, subduing the population by the sheer force of their thoughts: {{{ YOU WILL NOT RESIST. }}} {{{ YUBBA-YUB. }}} {{{ RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. }}} {{{ GOODA. }}} {{{ IF YOU EAT THAT YOU WILL BREAK, DAVID.}}} {{{ ALL TOGETHER: CARE BEAR STARE.}}}

	03-06-2004 08:23									#499
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quote: But would the Borg bother to assimilate the empire?

No, the empire would annihilate them before they came up with the idea.

quote: Aren't the storm troopers just left over clone troopers?

No.

	03-06-2004 08:30									#500
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd It looks like a moldy slice of cheese. Federation ships, on the other hand, are usually quite graceful.

The Federation is incapable of designing a practical vessel. I'm convinced they outsourced Defiant to India.

	03-06-2004 08:32									#501
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Close enough...

Considering it isn't a Fed ship, I don't see how.

Strangelove: All they would have to do is assimilate Ewok teddy bears. They are apparently better skilled at combat that Stormtroopers.

	03-06-2004 08:34									#502
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Considering it isn't a Fed ship, I don't see how. Strangelove: All they would have to do is assimilate Ewok teddy bears. They are apparently better skilled at combat that Stormtroopers.

Ewoks didn't have **** going for them until the mighty Chewbecca took over a AT-ST and started killing Imperials.

bizzatch.

	03-06-2004 08:35									#503
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They got thier asses handed to them on a platter by teddy bears.

	03-06-2004 08:43									#504
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I guess you never read the SW Comic that show a Stormtrooper patrol out looking for a missing unit, and finding the patrol's heads on pikes.

The Ewoks are vicious little bastards. And they weren't even winning until Chewie took over said AT-ST and blew up other AT-STs and blasting the Imperial troops.

Go re-watch. There is a definate correlation bewteen the two.

Plus, let's not forget when Palpatine got whacked and, according to Grand Admiral Thrawn in Heir to the Empire it caused a massive detrimintal effect to the fighting quality of the Imperial Troops.

	03-06-2004 08:44									#505
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Teddy Bears!

	03-06-2004 08:46									#506
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It's somewhat sad that a canversation about Teddy Bears kills the thread.

	03-06-2004 08:47									#507
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Seeing as the Federation regularly gets their asses handed to them by retarded spacevikings(tm), you aren't one to talk.

Not to mentioned Retarded spacebots.

	03-06-2004 08:48									#508
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I've never seen them loose to people wielding pointy sticks.

	03-06-2004 08:52									#509
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watch your back . . . .

Attachment: ewoks.jpg
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	03-06-2004 08:53									#510
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I've never seen them loose to people wielding pointy sticks.

I've seen them lose to slow moving spacezombies. Repeatibly.

"Oh God! They've adapted!"

"Sir? Why don't we use slugthrowers onthem?"

"Quiet Ensign, slugthrowers are indicative of the uncivilized barbaric society that was pre-communist Earth!"