09-06-2004 18:32									#61
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quote: Currently, in polite society, it is what African Americans prefer to be called and who am I to say that they're "wrong"?

what African Americans prefer to be called... yes, that great big monolithic group of nigg... err... African-Americans. (I meant err as in error not finishing nigg! I even have African-American friends!)

thats what kind of attitude you just portrayed

	09-06-2004 18:40									#62
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Albert if you knew what the hell you were talking about, I'd continue this debate. But for now I'm gonna close it with the following:

quote: The recent success of African American offers an interesting contrast in this regard. Though by no means a modern coinage, African American achieved sudden prominence at the end of the 1980s when several Black leaders, including Jesse Jackson, championed it as an alternative ethnonym for Americans of African descent. The appeal of this term is obvious, alluding as it does not to skin color but to an ethnicity constructed of geography, history, and culture, and it won rapid acceptance in the media alongside similar forms such as Asian American, Hispanic American, and Italian American. But unlike what happened a generation earlier, African American has shown little sign of displacing or discrediting black, which remains both popular and positive. The difference may well lie in the fact that the campaign for African American came at a time of relative social and political stability, when Americans in general and Black Americans in particular were less caught up in issues involving radical change than they were in the 1960s.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/22/B0292200.html

	09-06-2004 18:49									#63
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Albert Speer is a moron!

	09-06-2004 18:49									#64
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and what does that have to do with your racist conception of group-think? we're dealing with individuals, not a monolithic group of "coloreds".

quote: The difference may well lie in the fact that the campaign for African American came at a time of relative social and political stability, when Americans in general and Black Americans in particular were less caught up in issues involving radical change than they were in the 1960s.

nah... i alluded to it earlier with that picture of the olympic award ceremony and the power fists... Black became a positive term in the 60's and 70's (black power, black is beautiful, etc.). that is why there was no anger at the sustaining of the term Black as opposed to the anger against Negro and colored back in the day.

	09-06-2004 18:52									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Oriental is equally vague. It originally meant everything that was not occidental (European and American). It's also a leftover from the colonial era and similar to Far East.

Oriental was equally vague. This isn't the colonial era any more (Except with PA ), when I say Oriental, you know a lot more than if I just said Asian.

	09-06-2004 20:23									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and what does that have to do with your racist conception of group-think? we're dealing with individuals, not a monolithic group of "coloreds". nah... i alluded to it earlier with that picture of the olympic award ceremony and the power fists... Black became a positive term in the 60's and 70's (black power, black is beautiful, etc.). that is why there was no anger at the sustaining of the term Black as opposed to the anger against Negro and colored back in the day.

You are sounding like an idiot. Racist conception of group-think? You just go looking for racism.

Which qualifies you as a racist. You hate white people. Which includes yourself.

Must be tough to hate yourself.

ACK!

	09-06-2004 21:05									#67
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Kaak I recommend you call them Negros or coloured people, I think those terms would fit you the best....

	09-06-2004 21:12									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer again... this is a silly issue. why would anyone get mad at being called Black as opposed to A-A? that's just stupid.

Speer, it happens. Just as there are some people who still call themselves Negroes and some even still call themselves colored. What it comes down to is, if someone asks you to call them something, it's generally a politie thing to do to respect their wishes.

	09-06-2004 21:14									#69
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i can't imagine anyone caring that much... this seems to be an issue that only white liberals worry about.

like Patrice O'Neal says, there'll be a race war in america but not between blacks and whites. between liberal whites and conservative whites.

	09-06-2004 21:22									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Calling them african doesn't connect them with any particular heritage. To think so is ridiculous. And to answer your question: If the people are from africa, or italy, or ireland, then I have no problem with them calling themselves such. But if they were born in the united states, they are only american.

Basically, you're trying to make a political statement. What you don't get it that it's insulting and rude. You feel that your feelings on the matter are more important than historical, geographical, and ethnic ties that bind communities together. In other words, you think you're more important than others and disregard their wishes.

There is a term for such people. It's called an assh0le. If you wish to be one, by all means, go ahead an be one. Just don't expect the vast majority of decent people to validate your selfishness.

Calling people African does connect people with a particular heritage. If you actually had a clue as to what you were whining about, you'd understand that there are, in fact, deep emotional ties to Africa in the African-American community as well as linguistic and cultural ones.

As for whether or not only immigrants can call themsleves -Americans, I suggest to you that there there are several hundred million -Americans in this country who would disagree with you. You go into Little Italy or Bidgeport and tell people they aren't Italian-Americans or Irish-Americans. Tell Lucy Lu she isn't a Chinese-American. At best you'll be laughed at.

	09-06-2004 21:23									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i can't imagine anyone caring that much... this seems to be an issue that only white liberals worry about.

What you can or can't imagine, Speer, generally has little to do with the way the world really is. Haven't you learned that by now?

	09-06-2004 21:26									#72
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thorn, i'm not racist. The point is, if you must use a term, use one that is accurate and descriptive. I think it best not to use a term at all; that we should all just be americans. No check boxes on applications or anything else. African american, if used, should be used to describe people that are actually from african and have become american, as that would be accurate. And definately not limited to black people.

The term african american just isn't right as it is currently used. It is used to refer exclusively to black people, though there are many on or from the continent who aren't black. Also, one would think the ethnicities would be somewhat important...

	09-06-2004 21:38									#73
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kaak:

quote: It is used to refer exclusively to black people, though there are many on or from the continent who aren't black.

well the people you're describing are immigrants like the Boers, etc. except for the north africans, which are native to africa but not black/negro.

what you're proposing is like saying its inappropriate for someone to call you European just because there's some non-whites in europe.

	09-06-2004 21:41									#74
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chegitz:

quote: you'd understand that there are, in fact, deep emotional ties to Africa in the African-American community as well as linguistic and cultural ones.

bullshit and you know it. sure you'll have an occasional dredlocked nationalist who pretends to be/live/act/think african (and a shitload of followers in the prisons) but the only black people in america with any ties to africa are Ghanan, Sudanese, etc. immigrants. africa is just a vague mystical place to even the most 'connected' black power types.

don't pretend that aint true.

	09-06-2004 21:42									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak thorn, i'm not racist.

Actually, you are. You are dismissing the importance of history, ethnicity, and race in people's lives, and defining American as the only true American, instead of realizing that what makes our country special is our inclusion of others, rather than the exclusion which you would like to create.

	09-06-2004 21:45									#76
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I've always found the various something-American terms fairly stupid when not applied to first-generation immigrants, and African-American is worse than most, since it, near as I can tell, don't include folks of, say, Afrikander or Algerian descent.

That said, I don't really have a problem with other people call themselves (as long as it doesn't impinge on my identities - it does sometimes rub me entirely the wrong way when Americans of Swedish descent refer to themselves as Swedes), and am usually happy to use whatever term they want to be used. che's claims nonewithstanding, however, this isn't out of basic human decency, but out of a wish to avoid confrontation.

	09-06-2004 21:58									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because of 400 years of racial politics which denied the Black people were true Americans. The important part of African-American is American, because in polls, the majority of whites did not view Black people as Americans. Besides, if I can be an Italian-American or an Irish-American, why can't Black people be African-Americans. Why does it so offend you that people like to connect with their heritage?

For most of them, their heritage is a mix of African, Caribbean Indian and white.

I just saw the Suzuki Rock and Roll Marathon just outside my house Sunday morning (the cross street on the corner was part of the route), and the lead group of runners at mile 16 were all Africans - Kenyan and Ethiopian. It was easy to tell all the African runners from any "African-American" runners. I've worked with Africans from Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Mali, and Zimbabwe, and they have next to nothing in common culturally with "African-Americans"

And a lot of "African-Americans" don't particularly like that label either.

	09-06-2004 22:05									#78
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I've worked with Africans from Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Mali, and Zimbabwe, and they have next to nothing in common culturally with "African-Americans"

The commonalities in linguistics and culture are small, but they are there. Speech patterns, style of dress, music, all show traces of African influence. Of course, from the other side of the Atlantic there is almost no feeling of commonality. Africans do not seem to look kindly upon African-Americans. But Europeans doesn't like us white Americans much either. And Asians seem to think Asian-Americans aren't pure.

Identity and community are imagined realities, articficial constructs. But like religion, they are deeply held and felt, regardless of any actual basis in truth.

quote: And a lot of "African-Americans" don't particularly like that label either.

Which I noted, which is why you should refer to people how they wish to be refered.

	09-06-2004 22:09									#79
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Africa has always been the most culturally and ethnically diverse continent.

That must be why we need more diversity here in America...so we can be more like Africa.

	09-06-2004 22:18									#80
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chegitz, stop playing... you know very well that most black people in the us don't give a damn about africa. the classic response to repatriation is "Why the hell would I want to go to Africa? I got nothing over there"

	09-06-2004 22:19									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Reagan is a moron!

	09-06-2004 22:25									#82
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MrFun is "The anti-Reagan". Does that mean he went alive a few days ago?

	09-06-2004 22:29									#83
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Let's not forget that Speer is somebody who blindly hates vast groups of people merely on the basis of Where they live.

quote: but yeah so i visited the suburbs... only makes me hate it more. and what was with all the jewish things? i always thought there was more jewish people in the cities than outside of them

	09-06-2004 22:33									#84
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i quote... "only makes me hate IT more" as in the suburbs... no reference to these vast groups of people

	09-06-2004 22:34									#85
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But what was your point then in your comment about more Jews being the suburbs?

	09-06-2004 22:36									#86
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arent there more jews in the cities than the suburbs? i mean NYC alone is said to have more jews than jerusalem.

	09-06-2004 22:37									#87
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That's nice . . . . .


so . . . . .??

	09-06-2004 22:37									#88
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Speer, the suburbs are the way they are because the people living there are the way they are. Hate the 'burbs and you hate the people who want them that way.

	09-06-2004 22:39									#89
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Nothing wrong with being critical about the conformity culture of the suburbs though -- you can be critical without hating the people.

	09-06-2004 22:40									#90
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johnt:

they dont want them that way. if they did, their children wouldnt dress, act, and talk like bad versions of us urbanites.

this is all besides the point.